Veneer

[jgrobler]

I am doing some veneer panels (to cover the ends and the like) for my kitchen cabinets. I'm using Ash veneer over a 1/4" plywood. So simple stuff really, no fancy patterns or shaped, just flat rectangles mostly.

Anyway, somewhere, I don't recall when or where, I read that you can use regular yellow glue painted on both pieces (substrate and veneer), when it's dry, you can move them around to get them lined up properly, then iron it on. The yellow glue apparently is heat activated. This sounds much easier than using a contact cement, that, once the 2 pieces touch, they're almost too bonded to make adjustments. I tried both ways tonight, and the yellow glue (I used Titebond II) and ironing works, but will it last? Unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to cut the veneer pieces a little larger than the panels, so I can't afford glueing mistakes.

How are you doing it?

All rational answers will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Johan

[drumpriest]

I use a vacuum press to veneer panels. I just have a cheapy one from Rockler (or woodcraft, they have it too). It was about 50$ and has a hand pump like a wine bottle cap.

I use titebond for veneering, and you should veneer both sides of the panel. If you do not, it'll unbalance the panel and is likely to warp. I cut the panels a little oversize, the veneer a little smaller than the panels. Glue on both pieces, VERY THIN COAT. Too much glue can bubble up, make sure it's entirely covered, but thin. Then I tape the edges down with blue tape, put the thing into the vac press with 2 MDF cauls on either side (I wax the cauls so the glue won't stick). 2 hours in the press, and you are good. I then cut the panels down to final dimensions.

If you are going to use contact cement, use dowels across the substraite, then you can remove the center one, and move out towards the edges. You should have the veneer be over size, then trim the edges.

[cabinetman]

Johan

You didn't state if the cabinets are already installed. IMHO, using an iron on the dried PVA is not a good idea. It might stick long enough before it decides to fall off. If you can access the cabinet using wet PVA with some way to create pressure till it dries, is the best method. If the cabinet is already installed and pressure applied glueing isn't feasible, use contact cement. If you use contact cement, using dowels as Keith recommended to position the veneer, or a slip sheet between the glued parts also works.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[bmuir]

PVA Gluing Veneer

I have not used this method on a project but I have tested it. It works very well and allows you to position the pieces very precisely. I plan on using this method on four speakers I am building.
Here is a link to the Oakwood Veneer Company’s Web site discussion of this topic. Good luck.
Bill
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html

[jgrobler]

Thanks for the advice guys. The cabinets are already installed, but the 1/4" panels not. It's my first kitchen remodel, so I learned a lot, next time I'll do the veneer in the garage, not afterwards. (Don't ask me when that'll be)

So I have to affix the veneer to the 1/4" panel, then the veneered panel to the cabinet. The iron idea won't work for the latter, I was thinking of the veneer to the panel for it, but I'm not sure I trust it. Anyway, I glued a test piece tonight, will see tomorrow, or the weekend if I can peel it off. I'll post an update on whether I think it will hold. Thanks for the link Bill. That was about how I remember it.

Then there's the panel to the cabinet, where I like the idea of wet yellow glue. I think I can come up with some contraption that will keep some pressure on for a half day or so.

I don't have a compressor, and I think due to the size of many of the panels (42" x 18", 36" x 30") the vacuum press will work. (not that I know how large the "bag" can be!) But that is on my list of things to get.

[drumpriest]

The Vac bag that I have is 26x28, but they can be very much larger. Some here with electric pumps probably have something more along 3'x5' or so. Regardless to get into something along those lines, you are probably into 300-400$, depending upon how lucky you are.

Anyway, here's a link to the vac press company... I think given your situation, you are probably looking at contect cement.

http://www.roarockit.com/rc_wood.php

[Tom Miller]

The Vac bag that I have is 26x28, but they can be very much larger. Some here with electric pumps probably have something more along 3'x5' or so. Regardless to get into something along those lines, you are probably into 300-400$, depending upon how lucky you are.

Anyway, here's a link to the vac press company... I think given your situation, you are probably looking at contect cement.

http://www.roarockit.com/rc_wood.php

Like a moth to the flame, I'm getting closer to trying my hand at veneering....

Keith, how well does that vacuum press setup work? In particular, how good a job does the hand pump do? Do you need to pump every X minutes, or something? Do you have any idea how the vacuum compares to a mechanical vac pump?

Has anyone out there made their own bag? Local camping stores have 4mil (maybe thicker) poly bags used for pack liners for canoe campers.

At Rockler's summer sale, I couldn't resist buying two or three veneer sets at 65% off. I also picked up some Titebond Coldpress veneer glue and some veneer tape, but that's all the closer I've gotten.

Regards,
Tom

[drumpriest]

Tom, the press works for me. The big thing is to get that tape to seal properly. If you don't, it'll slowly leak air, and you'll have to repump every so often. It'll slowly leak air anyway, but that's to be expected, no vac is perfect.

I would say that the advantage of the vac pump systems is that you have to babysit it less. The veneers that I've applied with this little press have worked well for me. According to thier literature, it does hit about 1400 pounds per sq foot in the hand pump press, which is about what you'd expect from a vac pump press.

I typically check mine at 5 mins and 15 mins. If it's leaking, I pump and play with the tape. When the bag is new, it's an issue because where the bag folds up, it's hard to seal. There are probably better systems for closing these bags than the tape though. David Marks uses 2 pvc fittings to do it.

If your project is small enough, and you have enough clamps, you can just clamp the veneer on there with cauls on either side.

The trickier bit is prepping the veneer for book or quarter matching. There are a lot of methods, let us all know when you get there. ;-)

[mpauly]

Anyone try Heat Lock?

http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog...b5da94bb800665
http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...-veneering.htm

Supposedly applies just like yellow wood glue, but has some 'cross-linker' in it that is heat activated. I've not used it, but some professional speaker builders on another forum I read swear by it.

I also used to have a link to a DIY vaccuum press for around $100, but I can't find it right now. I'll post if I can dig it up.

Michael

[Tom Miller]

Keith, thanks for the info. Sounds like a reasonable (i.e. low $$) approach to test the water, especially since keeping an eye on the thing even for a couple hours should not be any problem.

Regards,
Tom

[cgallery]

I've often wondered if wetting one surface when using the PVA ironing method wouldn't allow the glue to soften a little more quickly and uniformly. I suppose it could also dilute the glue. However, I've read posts from speaker builders complaining about ironing Titebond and they all seem to say that getting it hot enough w/o burning is tricky, and that uniform glue thickness is also tricky. I would think wetting the substrate before ironing would help in both cases.

I guess I'll just have to try it some day.

BTW, there are also sheets of heat-activated glue available. I used to see some veneer outfits selling them. Not cheap, but probably work pretty well.

[jgrobler]

Here's my comments on the ironing dried Titebond II.

I did this on a small and a larger test piece. On the small piece it worked easier than contact cement, since you can position it more easily on the substrate, and start ironing. I did this Wednesday evening, today I couldnt' pry it of anywhere.

On the larger piece it takes some time to iron and make sure it bonded well accross the whole surface. In this case in the future I'll stick to contact cement, for ease of application.

My concern was that the heated yellow glue may not bond too well, but I think it's good. Applying and cleaning up yellow glue is also a lot easier than with contact cement.

I was careful to spread the glue evenly. Also, with the iron on the correct a good heat setting, getting the glue hot enough was jsust a matter of time, and I didn't burn the glue.

Thanks for the tips on the hand vacuum press. I'll check that out for my next project, now that I'm seeing the finish line for my kitchen.

Thanks for all the tips everyone.

Johan