Shellac Flakes ?'s

[Ken Massingale]

To finish a small White Pine chest for the MIL, I'm going to use Garnet Shellac. This will be my first adventure into mixing my own Shellac. I plan on using a 2 lb. cut, mixing 2 oz. shellac flakes with 8 oz. of alcohol.
For those that are familiar with mixing Shellac, does this sound good?
Also, I thought I would spray instead of rubbing the shellac as I usually do. Does Shellac spray well and if so, what is a good cut to start with? I fear the alcohol may flash off to quickly if sprayed.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Ken

[Tom Miller]

I've been mixing shellac using de-waxed flakes I got from http://www.shellac.net. But I've really only used it as a washcoat prior to other finishes to reduce blotchiness; hence the emphasis on de-waxed. For that, I use 1# cut, or even less.

Let's see, a 2# cut means 32oz of flakes per gallon, which is 128 fl. oz, so 1 oz. flakes per 4 fl. oz....Yep, you got it.

Re: spraying. My only experience with spraying is messing around with an air brush (helping the kids with model rockets, etc. -- God, I love kids!). So, all I know is that your concern re: alcohol evaporation is valid. 2# cut seems like a lot for spraying though. Just make sure the surface is wet, but without sagging. (Not much help, huh?)

From what little I've played with shellac, it seems like wiping or brushing on the heavier cuts is way less forgiving as, e.g., wipe-on poly.

Regards,
Tom

[SwingKing]

One thing to watch out for is you need to really grind up the flakes well before mixing with the alcohol. I bought one of those starter kits from Rockler with Blonde, Amber, and Garnet shellac flakes, and the garnet was the hardest to get dissolved properly. If you've got one, I understand a small coffee grinder works well for grinding up the flakes.

On spraying, Flexner's book says to start with a 1 lb cut until you get used to it. He says 2 lb is about the max you want to try spraying because any more and it won't atomize properly. He does say that shellac is one of the easiest finishes to spray because it is so forgiving. My experience is mixed, mainly because I'm brand-new to spraying finish and my technique isn't the best.

-- Ken

[Tom Miller]

Flexner's book says...that shellac is one of the easiest finishes to spray because it is so forgiving.

Hey, that's interesting, and good to know. Thanks!

Just might have to pick up that Flexner book.

Regarding dissolving flakes: I've heard about the grinder method, but I really haven't had too much trouble dissolving the flakes. (Maybe the difference is that I assume from the start it's gonna take overnight. ) When I need to accelerate the process, I put the container in a hot water bath. That can speed the process as much as 10x, even with hot tap water.

Regards,
Tom

[Ken Massingale]

Thanks Ken and Tom, I appreciate the information.
I have a small test batch going now, I have to say I didn't expect it to look like 2 day old coffee in the jar. Sure ain't looking Garnet like the flakes did???
ken

[hophop]

Hi all,

I have read about mixing your own shellac and see the benefits of that process, but I also wonder whether it is cost-effective. See, I can buy a gallon of Zinsser BullsEye Sealcoat, which I read is 3#-cut blond dewaxed, for about $25 at HD. To mix it on my own, I would have to spend $15 for a gallon of Denatured Alcohol, 3 lbs of dewaxed blond flake at Woodcraft for about $35 each. If I need blond shellac, then mixing my own makes no economic sense ($25 vs $120). Am I missing something? Thought?

[woodturner]

See, I can buy a gallon of Zinsser BullsEye Sealcoat, which I read is 3#-cut blond dewaxed, for about $25 at HD. To mix it on my own, I would have to spend $15 for a gallon of Denatured Alcohol, 3 lbs of dewaxed blond flake at Woodcraft for about $35 each. If I need blond shellac, then mixing my own makes no economic sense ($25 vs $120). Am I missing something?

A couple of things. Shellac has a very limited shelf life when mixed - basically two to four weeks - so commercial, mixed shellac has other stuff added to make it last longer. Unfortunately, that results in a softer, less lustrous finish that is also not water resistant. In addition, you can only get lower grades of shellac premixed - can't get the good stuff that way.

Second, I don't buy shellac from WC - way, way overpriced. Top quality orange shellac sells for around $10/lb in flake form, less in button or stick. Top quality lemon or blond is still $20 or less.

I don't like to use denatured alcohol - it is denatured by adding harmful chemicals like MEK to it. I use pure grain alcohol from the liquor store - costs about $1 more per fifth (although if you are paying $15/gal for denatured, your cost for grain alcohol might be less or about the same).

Rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol is not supposed to work well, due to the water in it. However, I've actually had pretty good luck with it, and use it often, particularly for small projects like turnings.

BTW, shellac.net was started by Patrick Olguin but he sold it a few years ago - and they have dramatically raised the prices. He used to do group buys, not sure if he is doing that anymore. A few years back I bought 10 lbs of assorted high grade shellacs from him for around $25, enough to last for years. A pound of shellac makes a LOT of finish.

[thrytis]

I've sprayed some 1.5 lb cut okay using a 1.0 mm needle. When i tried it with the large needle it went on too heavy and ran.

[RAFlorida]

Ken, I'm going to say this up front real quick like;

I've never used shellac before and I apologize for what may appear to be hijacking your thread, BUT;
You shellacers got my interest up and I had to check this stuff out. My dear old granddad told me what the stuff was made of, (bugs' liquid waste). But because you guys posting good info on mixing and what have you, I found these tidbits on Wiki:
1.Shellac is edible and it is used as a glazing agent on pills (see excipients) and candies in the form of pharmaceutical glaze (alternatively, confectioner's glaze). Because of its alkaline properties, shellac-coated pills may be used for a timed enteric or colonic release.[10] It is also used to replace the natural wax of the apple, which is removed during the cleaning process.[11] When used for this purpose, it has the food additive E number E904. This coating is not vegan and most likely not vegetarian either as it may, and probably does, contain crushed insects.
2.It takes about 100,000 lac bugs to make 500 g of shellac flakes.
3.Shellac scratches less easily than most usual lacquers, and damaged areas can easily be touched-up with another coat of shellac (unlike with polyurethane) because the new coat merges with and bonds to the existing coat(s), but shellac is much softer than Urushi lacquer for instance, which is far superior in regards to both chemical and mechanical resistance.

I again apologize for highjacking your thread, but I'm hoping it will help others like myself get some of this stuff and try it out on some of our wood projects. Thanks Ken for starting a great thread. and thanks to Wiki.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac)
(BTW, there's a lot of info for you other wannabe shellacers at wiki.

[cabinetman]

Hi all,

I have read about mixing your own shellac and see the benefits of that process, but I also wonder whether it is cost-effective. See, I can buy a gallon of Zinsser BullsEye Sealcoat, which I read is 3#-cut blond dewaxed, for about $25 at HD. To mix it on my own, I would have to spend $15 for a gallon of Denatured Alcohol, 3 lbs of dewaxed blond flake at Woodcraft for about $35 each. If I need blond shellac, then mixing my own makes no economic sense ($25 vs $120). Am I missing something? Thought?

Prices are likely different now, as this thread is 4 years old. Mixing your own when needed allows a longer shelf life, and allows your choice of cut.
.

[woodturner]

My dear old granddad told me what the stuff was made of, (bugs' liquid waste).

Common misperception - shellac is a secretion of the Lac bug, but it is neither urine nor excrement. The Lac bug excretes the shellac from pores in it's body to make "tunnels". If you buy stick lac, it is literally the branches from the tree with the tunnels attached.

[RAFlorida]

Thanks Woodturner for further

enlightnment of shellac. All those years and I thought it otherwise. Glad you cleared that up for me

[cabinetman]

Common misperception - shellac is a secretion of the Lac bug, but it is neither urine nor excrement. The Lac bug excretes the shellac from pores in it's body to make "tunnels". If you buy stick lac, it is literally the branches from the tree with the tunnels attached.

An accurate explanation from Wikipedia:

Shellac is scraped from the bark of the trees where the female lac bug, Laccifer (Tachardia) lacca Kerr, Order Hemiptera, Family Coccidae[1] deposits it to provide a sticky hold on the trunk. This insect is in the same family as the insect from which cochineal is obtained. The insects suck the sap of the tree and excrete "stick-lac" almost constantly. The least coloured shellac is produced when the insects are parasitic upon the kursum tree, (Schleichera trijuga). The raw shellac, which contains bark shavings and lac bug parts, is placed in canvas tubes (much like long socks) and heated over a fire. This causes the shellac to liquefy, and it seeps out of the canvas leaving the bark and bug parts behind. The thick sticky shellac is then dried into a flat sheet and broken up into flakes when dried, or dried into "buttons" (pucks/cakes), and then bagged and sold. The end-user then mixes it with denatured alcohol on-site a few days prior to use in order to dissolve the flakes and make liquid shellac
.

[woodturner]

enlightnment of shellac. All those years and I thought it otherwise. Glad you cleared that up for me

NP. Here is a link that provides more details and more complete information.
http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm

Edit: Here is another page with more technical information
http://www.shellac.in/lacinsect.html

There is also a wiki page, but it's not accurate - the shellac is actual the tunnel-like cocoon the Lac bug makes, not "sticky feet" as the wiki implies.. We will have the wiki page updated soon.

[pelligrini]

There's a pretty good article on the basics of shellac in the lastest issue of Fine Woodworking (Nov/Dec 2010).

http://www.finewoodworking.com/Mater....aspx?id=33678