Floor Tile/Toilet Question

[JoeyGee]

We have had a leak in our bathroom for a little while now. I finally had some time to check it out today. I assumed it was the shower--water was wicking into the green board right next to it. I actually traced it to the toilet next to the shower. The wax ring wasn't sealing.

I removed the toilet to discover when a previous home owner redid the bath, they put in the new tile (12x12 stone about 3/8" thick) directly on the vinyl, which was on top of another layer of vinyl. There is no backer board for this tile. Is this normal? I don't think it is.

The main issue I have is that they cut the tiles to fit around the toilet, so the toilet is sitting on the old vinyl, then they caulked around the toilet . I guess we are very fortunate the water escaped between the tile and the vinyl to where we found it, instead of pooling and rotting the subfloor. The subfloor looks to be relatively clean, dry and solid. The tiles around the toilet are cracking where the water found a channel.

For now, I am going to replace the ring and reseat the toilet, until I get time in a few weeks. Would it be overkill to want to rip out the floor and do it right? Rip down to the subfloor, put down backer and new tile? It's a small bathroom, but that's a lot of work.

[cabinetman]

A proper fix would be to tear it all out and retile to the flange. That would give you a firm mounting for the toilet. Tile will stick to vinyl (as you found out) by using a bonding agent in the thinset. But the way yours was done (tile around the toilet) would leave you with a problem if you had to replace the toilet itself. The base might not be an exact fit.

There's other caveats. I wouldn't caulk around the base of the toilet, for as you found out, leaks aren't found for a while. You can caulk around the base, but leave some of the back open. Wax rings can fail over time, when the various sitting motions on the toilet cause some space, allowing the bolts to come loose.

.

[phrog]

I ran into a similar problem several years ago but mine had gone through to the subfloor and I had to replace the subfloor which required me to replace the closet flange. I decided to replace the vinyl with a backer board and then ceramic tile after replacing the subfloor. I was told by several experts that the toilet should rest on the new tile and not be below the tile if I wanted to do it right. After setting the toilet on the tile, I was told that I should not seal around the toilet base but if I did to leave the back open for water to come out if the wax ring failed. I was also told that wax rings should be replaced at least every 3 to 5 years because of deterioration.

In summary: New Subfloor; Hardi-Backer Board; Ceramic Tile; Closet Flange; Wax Ring; Toilet. In that order and without Caulk aound the toilet.

[Stytooner]

You can caulk around the toilet just for looks, but leave it open at the rear so any water leak can still be detected easily.
Sometimes I have caulked partially like this and other times it just looked good enough without it.
Personal preference really.

[Sid]

With tile on top of two layers of vinyl, you may have vinyl old enough to contain asbestos. That could make covering it a better idea than tearing it out, and might explain why it was covered by the previous job.

Sid

[tommyt654]

"wax rings should be replaced at least every 3 to 5 years because of deterioration"

Hey Richard I have some desert property in Louisiana I want to sell to you. I have in my lifetime changed out maybe 2 dozen toilets, mainly in the latter half because folks were lookin to get the lower capacity toilets and save on water bills and some simply because they were doing a remodel. In every case the old wax ring, some as old as 25-35 yrs was still intact and working just fine, wax does not to my knowledge deteriorate unless their was excessive rocking (usually due to loose bolts) or a backup in the sewer system(chemicals eat the wax) otherwise it's all downhill from there. I suspect some plumber was feeding you a line of(insert appropriate comment here) to make a few extra bucks every few yrs or the employee at the local Lowes or Hd or (insert whatever store) you might have visited was lookin for repeat business. Not lookin to start an argument but thats just a line handed to you by someone who knew better

[cabinetman]

"wax rings should be replaced at least every 3 to 5 years because of deterioration"

Hey Richard I have some desert property in Louisiana I want to sell to you. I have in my lifetime changed out maybe 2 dozen toilets, mainly in the latter half because folks were lookin to get the lower capacity toilets and save on water bills and some simply because they were doing a remodel. In every case the old wax ring, some as old as 25-35 yrs was still intact and working just fine, wax does not to my knowledge deteriorate unless their was excessive rocking (usually due to loose bolts) or a backup in the sewer system(chemicals eat the wax) otherwise it'S all downhill from there. I suspect some plumber was feeding you a line of(insert appropriate comment here) to make a few extra bucks every few yrs or the employee at the local Lowes or Hd or (insert whatever store) you might have visited was lookin for repeat business. Not lookin to start an argument but thats just a line handed to you by someone who knew better

+1. I agree. The wax ring also prevents any gaseous odors from emanating, should your system have them, which it likely does.

.

[Stytooner]

That is assuming they are all created equal.
They aren't. I have seen them get very hard before and I have seen them that seem to have melted away for the most part. The melting away happened in bathrooms below beach houses that were not insulated.
They can get pretty warm apparently.

The spot hardening may have been from other chemical contact. Not really sure there what caused it, but I have seen it more than once.

I am not saying they should be replaced periodically, but should be replaced any time the toilet is removed or when there is an obvious problem with it.

[newbie2wood]

Asbestos tiles were used until the mid-80's. If the tiles are undamaged, it is best to left it alone unless you are able to safely handle an abatement project. Asbestos tiles are usually dark in color and often are glued with a dark colored adhesive. You can also examine the damage edge of any tiles for fibrous materials, but the only sure way to tell is to send it to a professional for testing.

[chopnhack]

Sounds like a line.... The only way I can see this to be that guys experience is if he is a poor installer on wood subfloors. Down here with slab floors, tile to flange is norm - in cases where the flange is lower than the finished floor we use a collared wax ring.
Toilet is sat on, bolts snugged up, lines checked, sat on again, bolts retightened
then the toilet is grouted in. Set in stone :-)
For wood subfloors, we used to use plaster of paris in small piles in front and back of the toilet to bond the toilet, you cant rely solely on the bolts - too much leverage against them!

[phrog]

"wax rings should be replaced at least every 3 to 5 years because of deterioration"

Hey Richard I have some desert property in Louisiana I want to sell to you. I have in my lifetime changed out maybe 2 dozen toilets, mainly in the latter half because folks were lookin to get the lower capacity toilets and save on water bills and some simply because they were doing a remodel. In every case the old wax ring, some as old as 25-35 yrs was still intact and working just fine, wax does not to my knowledge deteriorate unless their was excessive rocking (usually due to loose bolts) or a backup in the sewer system(chemicals eat the wax) otherwise it's all downhill from there. I suspect some plumber was feeding you a line of(insert appropriate comment here) to make a few extra bucks every few yrs or the employee at the local Lowes or Hd or (insert whatever store) you might have visited was lookin for repeat business. Not lookin to start an argument but thats just a line handed to you by someone who knew better

I've been looking for some desert property in LA. It was a guy in HD or Lowes that told me that. We eat a lot of beans. Maybe, that has something to do with it. In any case I changed them all out but it was not expensive. At about a dollar a ring I thought it was worth being safe than sorry (real sorry.)

[phrog]

+1. I agree. The wax ring also prevents any gaseous odors from emanating, should your system have them, which it likely does.

.

Okay, you guys are just beating up on me now.

[tommyt654]

No worrys mate,I'm a big fan of the musical fruit myself, but I don't think I'd be worried about those wax rings for a while, ah yes Beans,Beans the musical fruit the more I eat the more I !!!!!!!!!!!!

[JimD]

I will also vote for tearing out the mess and doing it right. I will also note that the $1 wax rings may fail, I don't know I don't use them. If the wax ring is not soft enough you can push your thumb nail into it then go up in price until you find one that is softer. With the right ring, it should last indefinitely. I've scrapped them off after a decade or more and they were still sealing fine.

Jim