Old House Renovation Help Needed!

[jseklund]

Hi All,
It's been a LOOOOOONG time since I have posted anything on this forum. I was active about 5 years ago, but life takes its twists and turns and I haven't had much time for my woodworking hobby as of late. I have, however, been sucked into renovating an apartment that my grandmother has. She lost her tenant in October, and I was going to go fix the place up. The house was built in 1880 and the aparment itself hasn't been updated even a little in over 30 years or more. A lot of what is there is over 100 years old.

I have run into a problem that I need to overcome soon, and none of the local guys I know (even contractors) have given me a solution that I am happy with. I remember how much help this forum was, and I know there is someone here who will know how to solve my problem - so I'm hoping you all would be kind enough to give me your ideas.

I have plans to upgrade the kitchen, which involves hanging cabinets on a wall that is between the kitchen and a bedroom. It turns out, however, that this wall is built with the 2X4s on their face - so the wall is 1.5" thick. This wall has some SERIOUS deflection issues. I can use 2 fingers and see movement in the members as I push. If I grab the top corner of the doorframe, I can really get it moving. I am not confident that I can hang cabinets on this.

I am drywalling the kitchen side of the wall, but the bedroom side has plaster and it would be a larger project to take that down and rebuild the wall.

I also cannot build out the wall with new 2X4's nailed to the side of the old because of the blocking in between the 2X4s that are there, but also because making the wall thicker will cause issues with the doorframe and window at the other end of the wall, etc.

One person suggested putting 1/2" plywood over the wall before I drywalled, but this didn't seem to help much.

My next thought is that maybe I can get a metal plate of some sort, screw it to the side of the studs (there's probably 4 studs that would need the plates) and that should reduce deflection - but what type of metal plate to get and where to buy it affordably is the question....

Does anyone here have any other ideas? Thanks for the help...looking forward to hearing from some of the people on here after such a long time....

[JimD]

I'm not sure you have to do anything. Deflection isn't encouraging but it isn't the same as being close to breaking. If you put 1/2 plywood over 2x4s on the flat it should be stiff enough. But if you want to increase it, you could put a 2x3 or half a 2x4 at right angles to the 2x4s in the wall screwed into the flat 2x4s. So you would have kind of a T shape. The resulting hybrid 2x4 should be stiffer than 2x4s installed the right way.

Jim

[jaspast]

You could hang the cabinets from the ceiling.

[mpc]

How about sistering in long vertical pieces of steel angle brackes ("L" shaped) or better yet "C" channel to the sides of the 2x4s. Just doing every other stud would give a lot of stiffness to the wall. Small "L" brackets can thenbe screwed through the channel into the sides of the 2x4s to provide "feet" that you can screw to the header & footers so the new "C" channels are attached at the ends too.

edit: if you do this, and sister only every other stud, use those reinforced studs to support cabinets.

mpc

[woodturner]

This wall has some SERIOUS deflection issues. I can use 2 fingers and see movement in the members as I push.

Flitch plates, steel plates with nailing holes for just this purpose, are commercially available. Attach them to the 2" edge of the 2x4s, so that the bending moment acts on the edge rather than the face of the flitch plate.

Another option would be to build the cabinets as a free-standing unit that did not use the wall for support. I suppose you could also use the cabinets to stiffen the wall if you went this route.

[jseklund]

Thanks guys - I knew there would be some good responses. I am not sure 100% what way will work, so I'm going to investigate some combinations.

I may use my multi-tool to cut out the blocking, rip 2X4's as suggested and lay the grain perpendicular to what was there. I'm thinking the angle brackets at the top and bottom would STILL be a good idea with this setup, so I'm thinking I may combine that method.

I'm also going to look into finding some flitch plates - that's what I was thinking of but couldn't come up with the proper name. If they are not too expensive, I have a feeling they would be easier than ripping 2X4's down and they will be easier to fit in the cavity. The cavity is only 1.5" thick, but there are plaster keys from the back end of the wall protruding, and things don't just fit like they should

Thanks again, I knew this forum would be the place to find answers!

[jdon]

Seems to me that if you can make your wall cabinet run sufficiently rigid- maybe by running a 1x4 lengthwise across the back top and bottom edges, the cabinets themselves could provide sufficient bracing to prevent deflection.

Alternatively, maybe you could run a 2x4 horizontally across the wall, with the short edge attached to each stud, running nearly the length of your wall cabinets. Install so that the cabinets would be attached just above the 2x4- so it would be visible only if you crouch down below the bottom of the cabinet. Just think, how often do you see under cabinet lighting without a special effort?

Also, the base cabinets will also provide some bracing of the wall.

Caveat- this advice is free and worth every penny.

[Carpenter96]

I believe that if you are going to fix something you should do it correctly. If you are going to have people renting the apartment then everything should be done correctly, think liability! Build to code. Money spent now will not have to be spent on lawsuits in the future. Regards Bob

[toolguy1000]

I believe that if you are going to fix something you should do it correctly. If you are going to have people renting the apartment then everything should be done correctly, think liability! Build to code. Money spent now will not have to be spent on lawsuits in the future. Regards Bob

+1. everytime i've taken a "shortcut" or not undone what was wrong and replaced it with what should have been there to start with, i have actually made more work for myself in the long run. that's why tom silva, of this old house fame, almost always opts for removing something old (in terms of structure) and replacing it with something new that is built correctly. plaster is a mess to remove, but that wall could then be rebuilt correctly with no concerns as to it's durability. just my $.02.

[cabinetman]

I believe that if you are going to fix something you should do it correctly. If you are going to have people renting the apartment then everything should be done correctly, think liability! Build to code. Money spent now will not have to be spent on lawsuits in the future. Regards Bob

+2. I've run into the same problem many times. If the wall gets built out correctly, differentials for door jambs and windows are also changed for a proper fit.

If inspections are necessary because of permits, what's there could be a big problem. If used as is, running electric and water lines/drain would seem to be another problem.

But, in actuality, installing properly built base and upper cabinets with a 1/2" back minimum (secured to the wall), would take out/minimize any deflection. If a full backsplash can be used, the upper cabinets can sit right on it carrying the weight. When the splash is secured to the countertop, there would be no forward/rear movement.

.

[jseklund]

I agree on the doing things right part - I have actually torn out 2 ceilings, all the walls in the kitchen, part of the living room walls, and some of the bedroom walls in 1 of the 2 bedrooms. The issue with this wall is that it's a partition wall between the kitchen and a bedroom and pantry. These 2 rooms were not going to receive ANY updating, and have wall paper on them. It's not my call - it's the other members of my family who don't have a clue. If it were me, i'd tear down all the walls and put up drywall at this point.

To make things a bit more complex, the wall travels down to a pantry - the wall that is perpendicular to the pantry door has a custom sized (small) window on it that is about 1" off of the trim for this door. If I build out into the kitchen another 2" with a standard stud, it will go past the window. I could build it out half way and just have a wall with 2 different depths, which I think I could make look OK - but then I have to remove the doors (which are new) and make extensions, etc.

There will be no plumbing on this wall. The sink is on the other side of the kitchen. This wall is going to have an easy reach cabinet and maybe another 24" cabinet on the base and top. The wall perpendicular to this wall, with the other side of the easy reach cabinet, is a true 2X4 wall.

It's not a ton of cabinets that I'm going to hang on it, but I don't want the deflection to be a problem.

Also, I made a mistake - these are actually true 2X3's it looks like - on their face. It's a mess, but I won't get the go-ahead to tear it all out because it will require redoing another room and a pantry, which won't fly at this point...

[Dal300]

If family is playing the money game, pull up your pants and walk away. Refuse to give any advice or help at all.
Take your money and refuse that too.
Let them find a contractor that will do it their way, and will handle the liability.

I tell a lot of people... a job worth doing is worth screwing up. That way you can create jobs by giving lawyers something to do.

Do it right or don't do it.

[jabe]

Do it to code or walk away, it's a hard choice when other family members are involved. But as others advised, think about your liability if something happens to a tenant, will the other family members take equal blame? I don't think so, they'll say you did all the work so ur responsible.

[jseklund]

Hi guys,
No, I won't be responsible for anything, they will be. I'm not worried about that - the house is actually in my mom and my aunt's name and my grandmother lives there. They are responsible, and I know they would never put liability on me - but I don't want to put liability on them either.

As far as the wall, there won't be much on it. I am all for tearing thinga apart and doing it the right way, but there's a limit to that. If I carried that philosophy to it's final conclusion, I would have just taken the entire house down and rebuilt it - which isn't realistic at this point. It's a house built in 1880 and there are a lot of things that aren't quite code - stairs, partition walls, electrical, you name it.

So far I have taken down 2 ceilings, the plaster on a number of walls, taken up a large section of flooring in the kitchen and I plan on taking up ALL of the flooring in the living room and sistering the joists in there. We have wired in a bunch of new circuits for the electrical and updated all the wiring, put in some new plumbing, etc. When I took up the flooring in the kitchen it became obvious to me that in 1880 they didn't have easy access to lumber like we do today - it was like they used whatever wood they had for joists. At one point, there were 3 joists in close proximity to each other, and one of them was 3 1" wide boards nailed together. If it was by itself I would haver replaced it.

It's a large project and it's just a matter of how much more I can do to make things livable and safe. This wall is about 90" long. The refridgerator is going to take up 30" on the end of it and there will be 1 dedicated 20 amp outlet there. On the roughly 60" between the refridgerator and the end of the wall I have 2 more outlets, on 2 circuits, that I want to put a 24" cabinet and an easy reach cabinet in the corner - which should actually work out to just about 60-61" I believe. The hanging cabinets are going to be the same configuration - 1 24" cabinet and a corner cabinet. The corner cabinet will be secured to the perpendicular wall which is made up of true 2X4 material.

I weigh 280 and I can put a good amount of force on the wall, but it starts to deflect with just a little force. As was said - deflection and breaking are not nearly the same thing. The real reason I want to reduce the deflection is that I want to ensure the small # of hanging cabinets are safe, and I also don't want the wall on the back end to crumble if someone were to bang into the kitchen side (which will be harder with a fridge/cabinet in front of it).

I tried cutting down a 2X4 to scab next to the 2X3 and that won't work. I can't put it on the face of the 2X3 because it will build the wall out too far and then I may as well take the entire wall down and rebuild it.

I actually tried nailing some metal strapping to the side of one of the studs and I'm not sure if it is in my head or not, but it seems to have helped. I am going to put the 1/2" plywood over this and see how much that stiffens it.

I would love to take the wall down and start over and just do normal 2X4 - but given what it is (just a partition wall) and my limited time and the dwindling budget - I really need to avoid it.

In 5 years I'll be doing repairs, and I can do more updates then, I'm trying to get a bunch of the big stuff out of the way so it's easier to do it then....hope that makes sense.

In the meantime, I need to pick my battles on where to spend money, and I think that the trampoline floor, electrical, ceilings, etc. are more important than this one wall...even with a hanging cabinet.

I guess I could always leave the 1 24" cabinet off the wall on that section and just put up the cornercabinet, but it may look funny.....

[pelligrini]

I can't picture the floor plan. I tried drawing it based on your brief descriptions, but I'm not seeing it. How will the new electrical wiring be done? Drops from above? You can't really drill the flat studs.

Furring out just sections of the partition wall shouldn't look bad. You should be able to put up a proper wall where you need it instead of furring the whole thing out. The transitions could look interesting with some trim work and maybe some little niches.

The existing partition wall probably won't break, but the deflection can create problems. Load up an upper cabinet with a mess of dishes and that wall will probably bend a lot more than you're seeing now. Better use some self closing hinges, cause those cab doors will want to swing open by themselves.