Ingenuity needed for insulation project

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  • dlminehart
    Veteran Member
    • Jul 2003
    • 1829
    • San Jose, CA, USA.

    Ingenuity needed for insulation project

    Our townhouse used to have an "embedded" porch (under the attic, one wall living room, another bedroom, third wall shared with neighbor's porch, 4th the outer screened one). I removed the screening, substituted some glass sliding doors, and made it into a "sunroom". Added HVAC ducts. Now for insulation.

    I can easily blow insulation into the attic over this space. However, the wall between my new sunroom and the neighbor's unconditioned porch poses a problem. Because of the difference in his and my house floor plans, there's a flat wall from his house extending up above that side of my attic. I can look down into the wall cavity between my room and his porch. Studs are 24" OC, and the gap is about 2-1/2". No cap over this, so I could easily fill the space with, say, styrofoam pellets. Problem is I need about 24 cu ft, and even at Walmart they'd cost about $150. Plus, you only get about R2 at best.

    So, I'm looking for alternatives. Solid styrofoam sheets would cost about half as much, and have twice the insulation value, but they don't bend enough to get into the space and there'd probably be too much air movement. Most likely candidate seems to be something like blown-in cellulose, but the rental blower has a 4" hose that wouldn't work with my 2-1/2" cavity. My brother suggested using the blower to put a lot of cellulose in that end of the attic, then just shoveling it into the cavity with a snow shovel or such. I don't know if this would fill the cavity completely and evenly, or whether the narrow gap could result in empty spots.

    Another idea I've been pursuing involves fiberglass batts pushed or pulled down into the gap. Pulling (bottom of batt taped to a wood strip, which would have a string or strings attached, coming out a hole bored at the bottom of the wall) seems more likely to get an even fill, but also more likely to tear the batt and require pushing from above anyway. The batts, intended for walls with 3-1/2" cavity, would be compressed by about a third, and therefore the R19 they normally have would instead probably be down around R12. Still, 3 times as good as the styrofoam.

    Anyone have any ingenious suggestions?

    Thanks!
    - David

    “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -- Oscar Wilde
  • wardprobst
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 681
    • Wichita Falls, TX, USA.
    • Craftsman 22811

    #2
    Rent the cellulose blower, buy a liter of your favorite beverage in a plastic container, consume beverage over ice, cut bottom off of plastic container at the point where it will fit over the nozzle of the blower hose, apply duct tape and blow!
    DP
    www.wardprobst.com

    Comment

    • jking
      Senior Member
      • May 2003
      • 972
      • Des Moines, IA.
      • BT3100

      #3
      ^^^^Agreed. Blown-in cellulose is commonly used to retrofit older homes by blowing into the wall cavity through a roughly 2-1/2" - 3" hole.

      Comment

      • woodturner
        Veteran Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 2047
        • Western Pennsylvania
        • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

        #4
        Closed cell poly foam will give you a higher R-value and will expand to fill all the gaps. It's probably the best choice, technically, but it's not cheap. You can buy DIY kits, but it would probably still be $100 or more.
        --------------------------------------------------
        Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

        Comment

        • cork58
          Established Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 365
          • Wasilla, AK, USA.
          • BT3000

          #5
          Make alot of projects and pour the sawdust in. We used sawdust for walk in freezers when I was a kid. We actually cut wood for just the sawdust. That was a long time ago and we had lots of wood and time!
          Cork,

          Dare to dream and dare to fail.

          Comment

          • pelligrini
            Veteran Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 4217
            • Fort Worth, TX
            • Craftsman 21829

            #6
            Like woodturner said, closed cell poly will give you the greatest r-value. I don't think it will work for your intended application though. All the installations of closed cell and open cell I've seen have been sprayed onto an open surface. I don't know for certain if spraying the expanding foam into an enclosed space would work. I think it would expand before it would ever reach the bottom.

            Cellulose and blown in fiber are usually used in retrofits when opening the face of the wall isn't done. It doesn't always end up getting fully insulated though. You could just fur that wall out and insulate the new cavity space with whatever insulation you choose. Could just be an application of 4" Rigid to that common porch wall.

            One thing that seems a little off to me is that you can see into the vertical wall space from the horizontal space above. Those two assemblies should be blocked off from each other, usually with a top plate or 2x blocking at the ceiling line if baloon framed.
            Erik

            Comment

            • chopnhack
              Veteran Member
              • Oct 2006
              • 3779
              • Florida
              • Ryobi BT3100

              #7
              Exactly what Eric said, is there no fire blocking? This would be seriously hazardous if one of the units catches fire as it could quickly spread between both buildings.
              I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

              Comment

              • dlminehart
                Veteran Member
                • Jul 2003
                • 1829
                • San Jose, CA, USA.

                #8
                Venturi effect?

                Thanks for the comments.

                I'm now thinking of making a 'Y' connector, with one top branch bringing in air that sucks insulation through the other top branch, both outputting through the bottom of the 'Y', which would be attached to a hose long enough to deposit insulation at the bottom of the wall cavity. Would see whether a vacuum cleaner blower would work as an air source, and see whether any off-the-shelf Y-connectors are available that could be made to fit. Would like to use cellulose, to minimize air convection through the wall, but don't know whether this venturi method would have enough force to move that heavier material.
                - David

                “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -- Oscar Wilde

                Comment

                • BigguyZ
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jul 2006
                  • 1818
                  • Minneapolis, MN
                  • Craftsman, older type w/ cast iron top

                  #9
                  There is a pourable expanding foam that would work. It's not closed cell, I don't think. However, is will be better than cellulose.

                  Comment

                  • woodturner
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 2047
                    • Western Pennsylvania
                    • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                    #10
                    Originally posted by pelligrini
                    Like woodturner said, closed cell poly will give you the greatest r-value. I don't think it will work for your intended application though. All the installations of closed cell and open cell I've seen have been sprayed onto an open surface.
                    It's commonly used for retrofitting old houses around here. A lot of the houses are balloon framed, so that the entire wall cavity is accessible from the attic and the basement. They go into the attic, insert a long, flexible nozzle (kind of like a 12' straw) into the cavity, squeeze out the foam and withdraw the nozzle as they go. They then repeat the process from the basement, starting at the exposed face of the insulation installed from the attic.

                    I don't see any reason it couldn't be used in an open bay, but I've only seen it used in enclosed cavities, apparently just the opposite of common practice in your are. Guess it must work OK in both applications.
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                    Comment

                    • pelligrini
                      Veteran Member
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 4217
                      • Fort Worth, TX
                      • Craftsman 21829

                      #11
                      OK, I've never seen an installation done like that. I've always seen it sprayed from a wand like thing onto walls. I'm usually dealing with new construction though. Learned something new today.
                      Erik

                      Comment

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