Putty squeeze out on old windows

[gerti]

Many of our windows show a lot of putty squeeze out. The windows are double-pane, and on the inside there appears to be an about 1/16th gap that was filled with some kind of putty, some gray/brown, the rest dark brown (fits better with the stain but squeeze out is more noticeable). In some areas squeeze out is as much as 1/2"!

So: what might be causing that squeeze out? Is it the excessive wood movement in out Minnesota temperature and humidity extremes?

Should I just try and shove the old putty (which is still pliable) back in there?

Or remove as much as possible and replace, and if so with what product? Since the gap is pretty noticeable a colored product would be preferable.

Can I use just regular old putty? Can I add dye to it, and if so what kind?

Thanks

Gerd

[cabinetman]

If the putty is sealing the glass, you can use a "glazing compound". I think it may come in colors. If the seal is for the wood frames, you can use the same compound, or a good caulk, like Polyseamseal. I would remove the old if possible.

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[woodturner]

Many of our windows show a lot of putty squeeze out. The windows are double-pane, and on the inside there appears to be an about 1/16th gap that was filled with some kind of putty, some gray/brown, the rest dark brown (fits better with the stain but squeeze out is more noticeable). In some areas squeeze out is as much as 1/2"!

When you say old windows, do you mean OLD wood double hung windows, like 50 years or more old?

If so, you should see a little bit of putty on the edge of the muntin - that is the bedding the glass sits in. I assume you mean the putty is flowing onto the glass, however, and that is not normal.

Have the windows been painted or stained recently? The solvent may have softened the putty. The other thing that tends to make the putty flow is heat. Has it been unusually hot in your area? Putty softens above 80F or so, but usually doesn't flow much below 90F or so.

[gerti]

Thanks guys for your responses. The windows are casement windows (I think that's they are called, the ones with the cranks), fixed windows and french doors, maybe 35 years old. I honestly don't remember how they looked like when we moved in here 15 years ago, but I think they looked fine. Maybe the previous owner did a quick fix with some inappropriate products.

I am positive temperature plays a big roll, gravity not so much (squeeze out is on all four sides, inside and out).

Upon closer inspection it seems that the windows are substantially smaller than the opening they sit in. My theory is as the wood moves due to seasonal changes (Minnesota has one of the toughest climates in the world for wood), the windows sometimes move a little left or a little right they appear to pull out some of the putty, and once it is out it doesn't go back in. Or maybe when the wood shrinks it simply squeezes the putty out.



Anyway current plan is to remove as much of it as I can, sand, stain and finish the wood, and finally add some moisture-resistant caulk.

Any other tips how to avoid this from happening again are welcome.

Gerd

[cabinetman]

I would use Polyseamseal. It's a good adhesive caulk. Clean out as much of the old putty as you can. If the gap around the wood frames is large, you might consider using Great Stuff (for windows). Read the directions so not to overfill. With either the caulk or the fill, use it all around the wood frames.

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[woodturner]

Anyway current plan is to remove as much of it as I can, sand, stain and finish the wood, and finally add some moisture-resistant caulk.

Any other tips how to avoid this from happening again are welcome.

Gerd

That seems like a good plan. I would suggest using a clear paintable silicone caulking and digging out as much of the old putty as you can.

If you apply the caulking first, and then paint or stain over it, the putty should not be as noticeable. The silicone caulking will adhere to both the glass and the wood and should not flow like the putty.

[cabinetman]

I'm not a fan of silicone. I only use it to assemble glass aquariums. It's a PITA to use, makes a mess, and is difficult to clean up. If it's an application that can be caulked, I would use Polyseamseal.

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[woodturner]

If it's an application that can be caulked, I would use Polyseamseal.

I've not used Polyseamseal. It could be fine for this application, but the manufacturer seems to recommend against it:
http://www.polyseamseal.com/pdf/tech_all-purpose.pdf

If you use the Polyseamseal, please consider the health effect ratings and the recommendation to wear gloves, respirator, and goggles. It has a relatively high health effect, which would personally discourage me from using it. In addition, some people are hypersensitive to the Butyl Acetate and are much more likely to experience symptoms if they don't use the recommended protective equipment.
http://www.polyseamseal.com/pdf/msds_all-purpose.pdf

I also didn't see a warranty for the product on their website, so I'm not sure how durable it would be or how long it would last. While they say "lifetime", I couldn't find a warranty statement on their website to clarify what they mean by that.

Silicone is available in formulations that will last 50 years or more, is relatively benign chemically so no protective equipment is required (though cloth gloves and eye protection are suggested), adheres well to both glass and wood, and has the flexibility to remain adhered as the wood moves.

[gerti]

Silicone or caulk, I think I'll be studying what's available a HD. I am leaning towards silicone, but I have never been able to caulk with it without making a mess, so maybe caulk after all if I can find something suitable that isn't going top poison me in the process...

Next question is what finish to use. It is all indoors, but gets a fair share of condensation in the Winter. Whichever it is it needs to be low VOC though, we live and sleep in the place as I do this. Also needs to be a very flat finish. Any suggestions? I picked up some Polyacrylic at Rockler, but after reading the label it seems not well suited.

Thanks for all your suggestions, it is very much appreciated.

[woodturner]

Silicone or caulk, I think I'll be studying what's available a HD.

Really, any caulk that is flexible enough to move with the expansion and contraction of the materials and is paintable should be fine. Availability is definitely a consideration, as is ease of use.

Next question is what finish to use. It is all indoors, but gets a fair share of condensation in the Winter. Whichever it is it needs to be low VOC though, we live and sleep in the place as I do this. Also needs to be a very flat finish. Any suggestions? I picked up some Polyacrylic at Rockler, but after reading the label it seems not well suited.

Most finishes will generate fumes when wet, but the fumes stop once it cures. It may smell a bit for a little while after curing, but a smell is not necessarily harmful fumes.

For this application, I do think a polyurethane such as the Polycrilic would be a good choice. If you ventilate the room while using it and for a day or so while it cures, I think it would be reasonably safe and would not be outgassing dangerous fumes. If you check the MSDS for the product, though, you could confirm that.

[cabinetman]

I've not used Polyseamseal, but it might be OK, even though the manufacturer recommends against it for this type of application.
http://www.polyseamseal.com/pdf/tech_all-purpose.pdf

I wouldn't comment on a product I haven't used.

Be aware it has some pretty nasty chemicals in it, and the recommendation to wear gloves, respirator, and goggles would discourage me from using it. A lot of people are sensitive to the Butyl Acetate and are likely to experience symptoms if they don't use the recommended protective equipment.
http://www.polyseamseal.com/pdf/msds_all-purpose.pdf

Those are the same warnings that appear on most all of the caulk type chemicals, including silicone. Silicone is quite different in that it's not water based. According to their MSDS, there are 11 toxic chemicals.
http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/upload...ne_II_MSDS.pdf
There's also the warnings of wearing protective gloves, respirator. eye protection, and protective clothing.

also didn't see a warranty for the product on their website, so I'm not sure how durable it would be or how long it would last.

Again, if the product was ever used, those questions would likely have been answered. From their website: Polyseamseal® All-Purpose adhesive caulk provides a premium quality seal guaranteed to last a lifetime. A lifetime...that sounds pretty long.

Silicone is available in formulations that will last 50 years, is relatively benign chemically so no protective equipment is required

According to their MSDS protective equipment is required: http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/upload...ne_II_MSDS.pdf

adheres well to both glass and wood, and has the flexibility to remain adhered as the wood moves.

I didn't see that on their website.

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[pelligrini]

Silicone or caulk, I think I'll be studying what's available a HD. I am leaning towards silicone, but I have never been able to caulk with it without making a mess, so maybe caulk after all if I can find something suitable that isn't going top poison me in the process...

I've used DAP Glazing Compound on some wood windows I repaired when I lived in a 1920's house. HD around here carries it. Pick up some glazing points too. Personally, I hate working with silicone caulk. I always make a mess and it never comes out even. The glazing putty was fairly easy to work with, and I got much better results than I ever have using caulk.

I don't know how a silicone caulk would work in a window, but I know I wouldn't want to replace a pane that had been put in with silicone caulk.

[woodturner]

I've used DAP Glazing Compound on some wood windows I repaired when I lived in a 1920's house. HD around here carries it. Pick up some glazing points too. Personally, I hate working with silicone caulk. I always make a mess and it never comes out even. The glazing putty was fairly easy to work with, and I got much better results than I ever have using caulk.

I don't know how a silicone caulk would work in a window, but I know I wouldn't want to replace a pane that had been put in with silicone caulk.

The "old windows" folks don't really like DAP glazing compound, and view it as the "lowest common denominator", but they also tend to be a little fussy about their putty :-). If a putty-type product is desired, Glazol is another option that is available at many hardware stores and also seems to be preferred by the old windows folks. You are right, though, if you need to "work" the finish a lot, putty is the way to go, as it is designed to be worked and shaped. There is additional information available at historic homeworks, www.historichomeworks.com

I understood the issue was on the inside, while glazing points are usually installed on the outside, to hold the glass in place.

I use silicone for many applications and personally haven't had an issue with messiness or difficulting in applying. I suppose any caulk type product is messy to a degree.

Regardless of the product used, I would install it in the following way:

1. Make a plastic or wood tool to remove the old putty. Ideally, you would want a flat piece with a 90 degree bend slightly thinner than the putty groove. A plastic table knife would work, but a plastic putty knife might work better. The point is not to scratch the glass - so either use a plastic or wood tool, or put a thin sheet of plastic between a metal tool and the glass to avoid scratching the glass. Square the end and use it to dig out as much of the old putty as you can.

2. Use a syringe to inject the new material into the groove left by the putty removal. SLIGHTLY overfill the cavity.

3. Run a putty knife along the edge to pack the caulk into the groove and clean off the excess.

[woodturner]

IThose are the same warnings that appear on most all of the caulk type chemicals, including silicone. Silicone is quite different in that it's not water based.

Which Polyseamseal product or products do you mean? Polyseamseal is a brand name for a product line. Turns out at least some of the products are silicone.
http://www.polyseamseal.com/pdf/msds...cone-clear.pdf

According to their MSDS, there are 11 toxic chemicals.

That is an old (1996) MSDS, and formulations have changed since then. Here is the current MSDS for the GE glazing silicone
http://www.siliconeforbuilding.com/g...2800SilGlazeII

The MSDS shows three "hazardous" chemicals listed, in trace quantities. The health rating is only 1 - pretty safe (in contrast, drinking or grain alcohol is rated 2 - more dangerous http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/~nanoe/msds/ethanol.pdf)

No respirator is required, though cloth gloves and eye protection are recommended.

I didn't see that on their website.

It's in the data sheet I linked:
"Not for use in architectural joints"

Really, though, for interior applications, it is not critical. Whatever the OP can find locally and finds easiest to use will likely be the best choice for them.

[cabinetman]

Really, though, for interior applications, it is not critical. Whatever the OP can find locally and finds easiest to use will be the best choice for them.

Absolutely. I wouldn't try to talk someone out of a product that I haven't used. As for all the chemistry involved, there are products that will vary in toxicity, but in the end, water based products are far safer than solvent based. I agree with pelligrini, that a major complaint of any of the silicone based products is the hassle in using it and clean up.

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