Wiring question (at the breaker)

[woodturner]

I don't know if your recomendation will change but the run is less than 15' long.

It's only for longer runs that code-mandated size increases.

An online NEC code calculator indicates 10 guage is the NEC specified size, assuming a 30A load. I would suggest 8 guage wire - although, if you find the additional cost for 6 guage is minimal, I might just go to 6 guage.

[gjat]

I am NOT an electrician, but some of the problems I see:
White should never be used as a hot leg.
It looks like you're using different sides of two different 2 pole breakers for 1 load. Not good.
The wires should be trimmed correctly, not coiled or run around in the box.
It looks like they're using the nuetral bar and ground bar interchangeably.

If you use #6, it may not fit in the breakers or outlet terminals correctly. Check that before committing. You DONT want to cut a few strands off to make it fit.

Spend the few hundred bucks and get a good electrician to come and correct some of the things the real electricians are warning you about here. In the long run, it's cheap insurance when you consider you, your wife, are sleeping there at night.

[woodturner]

White should never be used as a hot leg.
It looks like you're using different sides of two different 2 pole breakers for 1 load. Not good.
The wires should be trimmed correctly, not coiled or run around in the box.
It looks like they're using the nuetral bar and ground bar interchangeably.

If you use #6, it may not fit in the breakers or outlet terminals correctly. Check that before committing. You DONT want to cut a few strands off to make it fit.

Guess that's why I didn't see code violations.

1. Per NEC, the white wire can be used as a hot under several circumstances. It is preferable but not required to color or tape the white wire to make it apparent is is a black or hot wire. I don't see a code violation in the panel in this regard.
2. I don't see a two pole breaker being used for two circuits (which would be a code violation). To which breaker are you referring?

3. Wire dress is not adressed specifically by code, other than to say it must be installed in a "workmanlike" manner. Coil wires are fine and preferred under some circumstances. With regard to wire dress and routing, looks like a pretty decent job to me.

4. The neutral and ground bars should be kept separate, but in this panel I don't see any white wires in the ground bar or ground wires in the neutral bar. Are you possibly confusing the neutral from the SEC with a ground wire? What misuse of the neutral or ground bars are you referring to?

Definitely agree that wire should be sized to fit the terminal. A 30A breaker should take 6 guage wire without any problem, but always a good idea to check.

[reddog552]

Panel

I dissagre with woodturner on this 1. Panel dressing would fail a inspections. Work looks like it was done by a "carpenter" wires should be run in a workminship like manner, Grounds run too close to breakers, #4 black to ground bar has to be marked with green.No bonding screw on neutral side.No romex connector on wires bottom left onlt 2 wires are allowed in one romex conn.romex should be stripped back neatly no paper hanging out.Althlow not a code violation its a good rule to have all doubble pole breakers close to the top of the box closer to the main. If I was grading this instulation, on a scale of 1 to 10, IT would be a 2

[crokett]

There is at least one bare (I presume ground) run to the neutral bar. This is a violation unless the neutral bar is bonded to the ground bar. I don't see the bonding strap. I also saw the black running to the ground bar. There might be a green stripe on it, I don't see it. The white running to a breaker, it looks like there is another white from that breaker to the neutral bar, so that might be a GFI breaker? I'm not sure how you wire those. Also as was said, the box is generally a mess. I wouldn't wire one like that. Oh, I also don't see the panel itself bonded to the ground bar, but it might not need to be depending on how the ground bar is mounted.

[woodturner]

I dissagre with woodturner on this 1. Panel dressing would fail a inspections.

Panel dress is a subjective interpretation. Some inspectors might fail that panel, but in my experience it's reasonable from modern construction.

Grounds run too close to breakers, #4 black to ground bar has to be marked with green.

Those are preferences, not code requirements.

No bonding screw on neutral side.

We can't see the top end of the neutral bar, so we don't know if there is a bonding screw or not. Furthermore, if this is a branch panel (common in many parts of the country), NEC does not allow the neutral to be bonded to the box.

No romex connector on wires bottom left onlt 2 wires are allowed in one romex conn.

If you look carefully, you will see a blue ring where the wire enters the box, indicating the presence of a clamp. The code requirement is that the number of wires in a clamp be within the specification of the clamp. That number is usually larger than two for that size of clamp.

romex should be stripped back neatly no paper hanging out.

That is the one code violation I see, as stated earlier in the thread. Per NEC, the sheathing should extend no more than 1/2" in to the box. While there is no specific rule regarding the paper, it's usually interpreted to mean that the paper must also extend no more than 1/2".

Althlow not a code violation its a good rule to have all doubble pole breakers close to the top of the box closer to the main.

What is the motivation behind putting two pole breakers at the top of the box? Many panels are designed to accept two pole breakers only in certain locations and will not allow the breakers to be organized in that way.

It's clear this box is not wired in the way you would like, and that's fine - I'm just saying that the more common style of wiring is not a code violation, but rather just a style difference.

With the exception of the wire sheath issue, I don't see anything in this box that most inspectors would fail.

[woodturner]

There is at least one bare (I presume ground) run to the neutral bar.

I'm assuming this is the "shield" wire from the SEC - it looks like that and is commonly run as a bare wire to the neutral bar. It's fine, if that is the case.

It would be helpful if the OP would post a picture of the entire panel - that would allow us to resolve some of these questions.

I also saw the black running to the ground bar.

I can't see where the other end goes in this picture, so I'm not sure what it is and whether it is a violation or not.

The white running to a breaker, it looks like there is another white from that breaker to the neutral bar, so that might be a GFI breaker?

My assumption was that it is an AFCI breaker - and the coiled white wire is common for that type of breaker.

[gjat]

ishwane,
Again, I'm not a residential electrician, but in running street light and signal projects, I've seen way too many burnt breakers and load centers (services) to have long ago realized that although "should" is not as strong a directive as "shall or must", there are very good reasons to do things a certain way. When it comes to residential electrical, I strongly urge people to err on the side of caution, not accept 'should be good', and spend the extra time, energy and money to make sure where your possessions, self, and loved ones sleep at night are as safe as possible.

Many electrical components fail over a long period of time due to heat. Just becuase it is making good connection now and everything powers up, doesn't mean it will safely do so 5 years later.

[woodturner]

there are very good reasons to do things a certain way.

I agree that good practice is, well, good practice. I certainly wouldn't wire a panel this way.

NEC does not allow taping wire insulation smaller than #4, especially neutrals.

I assume you are referring to taping or coloring a wire to use it for a different function? For example, taping or coloring a white wire black to use it as a hot? Did you possibly mean larger than #4? I do disagree that NEC prohibits taping wire small than #4.

Perhaps the most common example is in three way switch wiring - NEC allows the white wire between the two three way switches to be colored black and used as the switched hot. This allows use of 2 wire instead of 3 wire cable.

[Crash2510]

Ishwane,

Only real major things that I see is the insulation not being stripped and the different makes and models of breakers within the same panel (not so bad of a code violation but a good way for your insurance company to get out of paying, in case of a fire). If you really want to upgrade this, install 10-3 NM B. Properly installed I have never seen a problem with this size of wire for a residential dryer. No offense woodturner but using 6-3 or 8-3 wire would be like installing 500mcm on a 10ft 200 amp service. I have actually seen more things burn up from people using too large of wire that wouldn't properly fit under the breakers.

Don't freak out about some of your "code violations" they don't make white wires and black wires different, your whites used as hots aren't going to burn up. Just be careful because if they aren't properly marked in the boxes things are not always as they seem.

just my two cents

I am an electrician if that matters.

[woodturner]

No offense woodturner but using 6-3 or 8-3 wire would be like installing 500mcm on a 10ft 200 amp service. I have actually seen more things burn up from people using too large of wire that wouldn't properly fit under the breakers.

I agree that the wire size must be compatible with the breaker or terminal. The OP has a 30A double pole breaker, which should accept 6 guage wire.

Voltage drop in the wire is proportional to wire size - bigger really is better. At some point, however, the benefit is minimal. For heavy loads like shop equipment, increasing wire size one step beyond the NEC requirement is usually adequate, unless the wire run is long (more than 50', for example).

Dryer service will also benefit from larger wire. Life of the equipment will be extended and the energy usage will be a little less.