Need some kitchen design input & ideas

[Alex Franke]

We've been talking about updating our dated kitchen for a couple years now. We want to get the best use of the little space we have and have as little down time as possible. We've come up with a crazy plan and I really hope I can get some input from everyone here.

We don't have a lot of experience with this kind of thing, so please tell me what you like and don't like, what's reasonable and what's just nuts, what makes sense and what doesn't, etc. I want to try to have as much of this thought through as possible before we start calling around for quotes.

The picture below is what we currently have on the left, and our new crazy idea on the right. (Up is south, toward back yard.) What doesn't work for us right now is:

• The door on the left opens to the garage, and the wife doesn't like sawdust tracked everywhere.
• There's an old wall oven in the upper right-hand corner, and a deep/narrow (and thus annoyingly nonfunctional) pantry that's not really pictured -- it's part of that oven cabinet.
• To the right of the island is a desk and the doorway to the dining room.
• The space between the desk and the island feels very under used to us.
• The oven, cooktop, dishwasher, and water heater (far upper left closet in garage) are all on their last legs.
• The picture window at the breakfast nook has a broken seal and needs to be replaced.
• The washer/dryer are in garage.

The crazy idea involves a lot of changes -- adding doors & windows, removing doors & windows, adding a mud room and a more functional pantry, replacing the water heater with tankless, moving washer/dryer upstairs, and adding a coffee station and staging area near the dining room (I'll make those custom) -- not to mention moving the whole kitchen to the other side of the house. The "sliding" door would probably be French doors, btw.

It also means we can build a lot of the new kitchen before we tear down the old one, so hopefully not as much down time. We would add plumbing/electrical first, close up the garage door, build most of the new kitchen (up to the stove), then demo the old, cap off the old plumbing, build the walls/doors, fix the electrical, then do the floors.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, gotchas, warnings, sage advice, etc would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! We appreciate you taking the tame to look at this!

[atgcpaul]

You've got a good idea of what you want and you already have a floorplan.
I'd say you're ahead of the game. I'd love to see some before and after pics.

For me, moving the plumbing and electrical would be the biggest challenge.
Do you have good access to those from below? Are you removing a beam in
the existing nook? Is it load bearing?

What's on the other side of the new kitchen sink window? Looks like there's
more building in front of that or is that your front yard? Do you or your wife
want to be staring out to the street/have people staring in while you're in
the kitchen? For me personally, I like to look out into the backyard--maybe
watch your kids?

Is heat or cold an issue for you now in your kitchen that is south facing?
You'll get less natural light and warmth in your new arrangement.

Are you doing this all by yourself?

Paul

[LarryG]

+1 on Paul's comments -- those are all points you should contemplate carefully.

But speaking strictly from a space-planning standpoint, what you have there is very nice and an imaginative use of the available space. I have only two comments, offhand:

1. The eating area looks pretty tight between the mud room and the cabinets on the right. If the latter could be omitted, that would really free things up.

2. The short peninsula in the kitchen helps define that space, but I think you would soon come to regret it sticking out in the room as it does. It's right in the cook's path to the pantry, and you'll have to dodge around it if you're carrying groceries in through the mud room from the garage. Cutting these cabinets off flush with the face of the pantry will give you a nice straight shot to the pantry, the mud room, and the aisle between the table and the sliding doors. If you really want to retain it, you might consider a half-round end (echoing the shape of the table) to make it feel less intrusive and to get rid of those two sharp corners as you're walking past it.

Otherwise, not bad. Not bad at all!

[Alex Franke]

Wow - great comments! Thanks a bundle!

For me, moving the plumbing and electrical would be the biggest challenge. Do you have good access to those from below? Are you removing a beam in the existing nook? Is it load bearing?

Yes, there's a crawlspace below. Access it a little tight down there sometimes, but I think it's workable. Both the kitchen and the nook are currently wired with GFCI, so I think we can use the same wires. The plumbing we were going to bring over from the powder room at the bottom right - there's some space behind that wall, and the washer/dryer would go right above it upstairs as well.

There's no beam -- Those dotted lines are there only to define the room size.

What's on the other side of the new kitchen sink window? Looks like there's more building in front of that or is that your front yard? Do you or your wife want to be staring out to the street/have people staring in while you're in the kitchen? For me personally, I like to look out into the backyard--maybe watch your kids?

It's the front yard. This is a good point. Right now they can see in while we're sitting down to eat, so we though the smaller kitchen window (as opposed to the large picture window we currently have) would actually give us a bit more privacy.

But yeah -- you're right. The kids will most likely be out back.

Is heat or cold an issue for you now in your kitchen that is south facing? You'll get less natural light and warmth in your new arrangement.

Also a good point about natural light -- we wouldn't get any sunlight through the new kitchen window. French doors would help in the eating area, but we'd also be taking a window away up there.

No issues with heat/cold right now.

Are you doing this all by yourself?

No, I think it's too much to do it all myself -- especially because we're concerned about down time. But I think there is a lot I can I do to help.

[Alex Franke]

1. The eating area looks pretty tight between the mud room and the cabinets on the right. If the latter could be omitted, that would really free things up.

This is a good observation. It's really difficult for me to look at a floor plan and judge what would feel "too tight" or "too open." Another option might be to move the mud room wall back a bit or make the cabinets narrower. I was planning on building those myself.

2. The short peninsula in the kitchen helps define that space, but I think you would soon come to regret it sticking out in the room as it does.

Good point. I was thinking about putting an appliance garage on that diagonal wall so that the mixer and other appliances could be slid back into the pantry itself.

My thought with the short peninsula was that it could act as a staging area for groceries just brought in through the mud room -- easy access to both the pantry and fridge from there.

But I can certainly see that walking around it might be a pain -- quite literally if the edges are sharp! I'll talk to the wife about this one for sure.

At one point I was thinking of custom building a rolling "island." Maybe we could use that as a peninsula.

[Shep]

Instead of having a walk-in pantry, would it be possible to have a built in cabinet pantry system? This way instead of having the cabinets come around and get in the way of the flow, you could have a clean line on the garage side wall.

Also, if it were me I would change the dimensions of the mud room. Personally, I'm not a fan of 45 degree walls, and would prefer a simpler rectangle design. I might even opt for an open style mud area with built in cubbies to act as a staging ground for stuff. This way you could have the mud room, without a door, smaller footprint, put larger eating area.

Overall, great plan though. This is a major project, so make sure your wife understands that. Moving all the electric and plumbing will give you some headaches.

Good luck

[Kristofor]

Also, if it were me I would change the dimensions of the mud room. Personally, I'm not a fan of 45 degree walls, and would prefer a simpler rectangle design. I might even opt for an open style mud area with built in cubbies to act as a staging ground for stuff. This way you could have the mud room, without a door, smaller footprint, put larger eating area.

+1

With the space available you don't really have room for a dedicated, self-contained, closeable mudroom. Since the contents will be visible anyhow IMO the walls just add an obstruction when carrying large items into the house, and making the space around the table look tight.

On the otherhand, I do really like the peninsula (though the idea of rounding the corners makes sense). As you did I immediately thought about where the groceries would go when carying them in. Additionally, when staging things for dinner setting items there allows someone else bring them to the table without having to get in the way of the stove/sink/fridge lanes. When pulling items from the pantry to start cooking it provides an easy/accessible place to set them down (assuming you want/need more than two items that can be held in hand). Finally, from the drawing it looks like there would still be a 5-6' opening even with the peninsula so that doesn't feel like it's making things too contrained entering/exiting the kitchen.

Just some thoughts from a non-designer

[Lonnie in Orlando]

Looks like you have put a lot of in-depth thought and planning into your new kitchen. And the experienced advice from members of this forum will add new insite.

My 2-cents ...
I recommend you choose a professional kitchen designer to create a plan based on your wants and needs. Everyday, I praise the designer that created our kitchen. She embraced our vision and added her experience to create usable space, an efficient traffic flow, and an architecturally correct look. She was a self emplyed designer / not affilliated with a supply house. I hope that you can find someone as good as she was.

Your designer can create the design. Then you can choose to do the work, or to contract it out.

My understanding of woodworking, construction, and design, plus over 20 years of living with the former kitchen improved my communication with the designer.

Good luck!

- Lonnie

[LarryG]

Okay, good points about the staging area, both for bringing groceries in and when taking food to the table.

I personally don't mind the angled walls, and I think enclosing the mud room is a good idea. Transitional areas of this type tend to get messy; if not contained in a separate room (even if there's no door), you can just end up with a disorganized eyesore over in the corner.

You might try tweaking your existing design sorta-kinda like this:



I say "sorta-kinda" because this is a VERY quick-and-dirty edit of your JPEG and there are some kinks that need to be ironed out. For example, the bend in the furr-down over the end of the cabinets should ideally align with the corner of the mud room beyond. The mud room walls have been shifted just slightly, and the pantry door moved closer to the mud room opening. The table is closer to the kitchen, with its center aligned on the center of the pantry door. This imparts some order to the space, provides a clearer path around the table to the mud room and sliding doors, and leaves room for one of the two cabinets you had at the right side.

Note how the end of the cabinet, where you had the peninsula, juts out just enough to provide a place to put things down but not so far as to be a hazard to navigation. Note too how the end of this cabinet, and the furr-down above it, picks up what is going on with the angled mud room wall across the way.

The furr-down could be a beam-like arrangement that simply defines the two spaces; or there could be a change in ceiling heights (kitchen lower, eating area higher) at this point. I would recommend the latter, to help reinforce where one space ends and the other begins.

Again, this is a rough sketch, but perhaps it will convey some of the ways you might tweak what you already have.

+1 on Lonnie's suggestion to work with a professional. There's no substitute for having someone work with you first-hand and be able to look at your existing spaces and see possibilities (and problems, sometime) that might impact what you are trying to achieve.

[billwmeyer]

Door

Good plan and you are getting some good suggestions. One thing I noticed is that the door going into the mud room from the garage takes up one entire wall of the mud room. Would you be able to make the door an outswing door and hinge it on the other side?
Good luck with the kitchen. I am going to strip mine down to the studs and redo it next fall.

Bill

[cabinetman]

Paul brought up some significant points. The remodel would entail a major plumbing and electrical move/expense. If you have the budget and time, having a "new look" would be nice. Since you're replacing some appliances, you've likely considered leaving the existing layout and trying to make it more efficient.
.

[Alex Franke]

Thanks so much for all your input so far! This is very helpful to us and is giving us a lot to discuss and work through... We really appreciate it!

Instead of having a walk-in pantry, would it be possible to have a built in cabinet pantry system?

That's actually part of the problem now. We have a cabinet pantry by our oven (not really pictured in the current design), but it's too narrow and too deep to be of much use. We lose things in there for years...

I might even opt for an open style mud area with built in cubbies to act as a staging ground for stuff. This way you could have the mud room, without a door, smaller footprint, put larger eating area.

Right now we're thinking of an open doorway but no door -- that way there will be some separation and you won't necessarily be looking at shoes and coats while you're eating.

This is a major project, so make sure your wife understands that.

Great advice!

With the space available you don't really have room for a dedicated, self-contained, closeable mudroom. Since the contents will be visible anyhow IMO the walls just add an obstruction when carrying large items into the house, and making the space around the table look tight.

Yeah -- we're going to have to figure something out here. I wanted a place where I could put some cubbies, a small bench, and maybe some coat hooks. It's going to be tight but what we have now is just now working out at all.

Do you think the proposed mudroom size is too small to be functional?

Finally, from the drawing it looks like there would still be a 5-6' opening even with the peninsula so that doesn't feel like it's making things too contrained entering/exiting the kitchen.

It's about 4 feet, actually.

I recommend you choose a professional kitchen designer to create a plan based on your wants and needs.

Thanks, Lonnie. We're going to try to talk to a few people -- starting with the cheap ones at the home centers then moving up from there. I think a pro would be able to give us a good idea of cost, too.

and I think enclosing the mud room is a good idea. Transitional areas of this type tend to get messy; if not contained in a separate room (even if there's no door), you can just end up with a disorganized eyesore over in the corner.

This is kind of where we're coming from, too.

You might try tweaking your existing design sorta-kinda like this:

Wow, that's pretty impressive for a "VERY quick-and-dirty edit"!! This is great input -- we really appreciate your time! This would also give more room for the doors to open (French doors as opposed to a sliding door).

Right now we have only 8' ceilings, so I'm hesitant to lower it more. I like the furr-down idea, though -- there is no space definition right now.

We were talking about using taller upper cabinets rather than having wasted space on top of the uppers, but I'm not sure how that would all look with an 8' (or even lower) ceiling.

We're going to talk about all your ideas right after the kids get to bed tonight!

One thing I noticed is that the door going into the mud room from the garage takes up one entire wall of the mud room. Would you be able to make the door an outswing door and hinge it on the other side?

As much as I'd like the space, it's a door going into the house from the garage, and there would be two steps up to reach it. It just feels like it should swing inward to me... But I guess it's not really an entry door... I dunno.

[Alex Franke]

Since you're replacing some appliances, you've likely considered leaving the existing layout and trying to make it more efficient.

We mulled over the currently layout for a couple of years but we weren't able to come up with anything that addressed the mud room issue, and the back door along with all the entryways (dining room, hall, eating area, garage door) really get in the way.

Then I started asking, "What if...?" and this design came up. The "functional" kitchen in the current layout is about 90 sq ft if framed in by the island, and the eating area is about 74 sq ft. Flipping the rooms seemed to give us a functional kitchen of 120 sq ft and an eating area of about 80 sq ft -- both "feel" bigger, plus we get the pantry and mud room for free!

I think mainly because we get rid of the big path between the hall and garage door, and use the space between the island and dining room better.

Another idea we tried was (in the current layout) moving the fridge to where the desk is, removing the island, and building a peninsula where the fridge is. But the fridge felt way out of the way and the traffic patters seemed really clunky...

[Alex Franke]

Here's another mock-up that incorporates some of the ideas. Any thoughts on this one in particular?

BTW, I will scrawl a big "thank you" to all of you by name and to BT3Central.com on the subfloor or behind the cabinets

[phi1l]

I pretty much agree with most that has been posted. The space seems a little cramped to me though. If you can;t visualize the actual space, try taking some rope or 2x4s or whatever out to the backyard & lay out the the plan in full scale. It looks to me like, with people sitting at the table, French doors would be obstructed, and you would have to turn sideways to get to the pantry, if you could get through at all.

I just found this page (which I have book marked for future reference).

31 Kitchen Design Rules


I knew about the work triangle, but most of the rest was new to me.