Plumbing Leak At My Sister's

[crokett]

My sister's house is slab, but not on grade. There is a brick foundation that was backfilled and the slab poured over that. She has a water leak - water coming through the brick. I was over there this morning and it is in the main line. The line comes in from the meter, under the house and up to the WH. There is a shut off just before the WH. The line tees into the heater then goes off to the rest of the house. When I turn the main off, the meter is still spinning so the leak is in the main. She can't afford a plumber so it will be me and my dad fixing this I think.

At this point the options as I see them are:

Dig up the line out front and reroute around the house. Then of course it has to get back into the house under a concrete patio, through the brick foundation and then dig up the concrete in the util room to tie back in. This creates way too much work, unless there is a way to bring it in above grade and keep it from freezing.

Dig up the concrete inside nearest where the water is coming through the brick and hope that is actually where both the leak and line are.

Dig up the line inside at the front of the house where it comes underneath, cut it and bring it up and over. I'd prefer to do except now I need a pretty way tp get it back inside the wall and up to the attic. This has the highest probability of success since we can locate it outside first then just go inside and dig up the concrete.

Any suggestions?

[Uncle Cracker]

If the run from the outside to the shutoff valve is a straight one, and not too long, you can use the existing pipe as a guide to wash a new pipe under the slab, then tie the new line in at the valve, and disconnect the old. It would require a small knockout through the slab at the valve. You can loosely tie the incoming end of the new pipe to the old, and then slide it along the old pipe while water jets out the end. The jetting water will likely flow back along the pipes and to the outside while you are working. When the new pipe pops out into the cavity at the valve alongside the old one, you're home free.

I should add that you should open the cavity around the shutoff valve first, as it is possible your leak is there, and you could just patch it, rather than replacing the pipe.

[Mr__Bill]

If there is a possibility that the line coming into the house is both large enough and straight...

I have seen plumbers slide a copper pipe/tubing into old iron pipe to avoid digging every thing up. It will reduce the size of the pipe. You would need to dig up where it comes into the house and where the pipe bends and exits the floor at the WH.

You may be able, if you are really lucky, to attach on the WH side of the pipe, after digging up the floor to the bend, some flexible plastic pipe and then pull the old pipe out and the new one in. You would have to make the hole at the foundation loose enough to do this.

You could pretend you are Ray in the UK and own a stone castle and just bring the pipe up the outside of the house and then box it in. This may be the only economically feasible alternative.

When replacing the pipe I would start at the meter, if it rusted out under the house the whole thing may be about to go. If it's plastic and just got damaged then I would cut it at the house. Route the new pipe to a place out of sight and with an interior wall you can use to get the pipe to the attic. then across the attic to the WH. It's really tempting to just tie into the plumbing at the closest point but you need to balance the flow and the T at the water heater does this, or should. Where you come up and over the foundation you can make an enclosure that insulated, if you use metal pipe you can wrap it with heat tape. Perhaps you can do this with plastic too but I don't think so. If you do do the up and over I would use unions, one below the frost line and one in the heated space, so when things go wrong and it freezes up you can easily replace the damaged pipe.

We had natural gas installed in a house and the contractor dig a pit in the street and then used a thing that dug a hole and pulled a pipe under the boulevard, the sidewalk and part of the lawn and surfaced next to the house. I expect the operator was very good, but it sure didn't look hard to do. You may be able to rent something like this and just tunnel under the house to a pit at the water heater.


Bill, On the Sunny Oregon Coast
Disclaimer:
I am not a plumber, nor am I a plumbing engineer, a mechanical or civil engineer and I am no longer a licensed contractor. The above are my thoughts and opinions on a topic where I have made several assumptions that may or may not be valid. The advice given is based on observation, experience and critical thinking. If you think I am full of it, then I am. If you agree with me then we both are the smartest people in the world. Void where prohibited by law. Use only with adult supervision. Not to be taken internally. This offer expires without notice. Opinions may contain facts but opinions themselves are not fact. That's my opinion and I'll stick with it until I change my mind and that's a fact!

[crokett]

If there is a possibility that the line coming into the house is both large enough and straight...

The line coming into the house is 3/4" AFIK, at least that is what comes out at the heater. At the heater it is sleeved in white PVC but I doubt that it is run like that the entire way. I also am not expecting it is straight. You've given me some good ideas. At the moment I am leaning towards running it around the house, taking out a short section of patio to get it close then up and over the foundation boxed in and insulated at the corner. Then it is just straight through the wall at the heater. I really want to get the d@mn thing out from under the slab anyway.

I also think we need to talk to the inspector. Most likely there will be a permit.

[cgallery]

And how far from the brick "foundation" is the water heater. That is, how much pipe do you think you have between the meter and the water heater?

If it wasn't too far, I think I'd use one of the electric jack hammers to go right through the floor and I'd try to run a new piece out to the meter.

Your other solution (going into the wall cavity, up and over) is also a good idea. While I have no idea why it wouldn't be acceptable, I'd double check that it would be up to code.

You're a good brother, BTW.

[woodturner]

She has a water leak - water coming through the brick. I was over there this morning and it is in the main line. The line comes in from the meter, under the house and up to the WH. There is a shut off just before the WH. The line tees into the heater then goes off to the rest of the house. When I turn the main off, the meter is still spinning so the leak is in the main. She can't afford a plumber so it will be me and my dad fixing this I think.

There are several options along the lines of what another poster mentioned - putting a smaller pipe inside the larger pipe. There is a type of plastic tubing made specifically for this that is commonly used for gas line repairs. Another system uses a bladder and forces epoxy into the gap to make a new epoxy lining for the pipe.

How deep is the pipe? Another option might be to dig down outside the house to access the pipe from the outside, if it's not too deep. Popping out a couple of brick and replacing them is relatively easy.

[pelligrini]

I don't know about meeting it meeting code either, but plumbing in attics can be messy. The pipe would need to be well insulated, and you can't always count on the heat from the house interior to keep it from freezing.

My aunt & uncle had their house in Houston flooded when the pipes in their attic froze. Power was lost for an extended time and the cold got to the pipes.

[crokett]

You're a good brother, BTW.

Thanks. Well I talked to my Dad and the city water people. The city is sending somebody out today to look things over and make a recommendataion. There is about 50' from the meter to the WH, the house sits over most of that. What I wanted to do was trench around the house, new line to the wall outside the water heater then box it in with insulation and maybe heat tape.

My dad, who spent every other winter or so in NY dealing with frozen pipes at least once wants to trench around the house, then dig down, take out the brick go through the foundation then drill down from inside and pull the pipe in that way. He is probably right. Short term we will dig up the line at the meter, cut into it and add a hose bib to get a garden hose attached, then bring that around and inside and cut in at the WH. That way she has water without it leaking all over.

All I know is, I am darn glad I have a full basement and copper plumbing.

[Mr__Bill]

Short term we will dig up the line at the meter, cut into it and add a hose bib to get a garden hose attached, then bring that around and inside and cut in at the WH. That way she has water without it leaking all over.

If there is any chance someone will be drinking this water make sure the hose is rated for drinking water. Most of them are not and leave a taste to the water telling you that you are drinking more than just water.


Bill,

[Raffi]

All I know is, I am darn glad I have a full basement and copper plumbing.

Yeah, but being the good guy that you are, your sisters problem is your problem ergo you might as well have your house built on a slab!

[Uncle Cracker]

...you might as well be on a slab!

Not sure that came out quite the way you meant it...

[Raffi]

Not sure that came out quite the way you meant it...

Yikes! Fixed it.

[crokett]

Well we got the temporary garden hose hookup in today. So now my sister has water again with no leaking. She is going to dig the trench this weekend and my dad will demo what concrete needs it next week. I will help with the replacement next weekend. As with all plumbing projects though, this one took more than one trip to the store. My dad got the parts on his way to her house but forgot for the hose hookup he needed a female adapter not a male one.

[pelligrini]

You sure have been getting a lot of plumbing practice...

[crokett]

Ok, for the new water line, is there any reason to line the trench with gravel or sand to protect the line? I don't think I've ever done anything like that. The line will be the black plastic stuff.