Laminate counters

[HarmsWay]

So I'm putting together a new kitchen/laundry room. I've got some Ikea cabinets in and I bought a few laminate sheets to build counters. Does anyone do this anymore? I helped a friend do this years ago so I remember most of the process. I'm using MDF for a substrate and I've got a few beech planks to making some wood edging. Any tips?

Bob

[cabinetman]

Do you have any questions pertaining to this project? Any part of the process that is unclear?
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[Garasaki]

Don't rush.

Use a trim bit that is sloped rather then a flush trim bit.

Make sure you have plenty of workspace. Remember you have to lay both the laminate and the substrate out to apply the contact cement.

[HarmsWay]

I was really just wondering if this is still a reasonable way to build a counter.

Process:
- determine counter overhang (probably 1" or so over doors/drawers and same or more over finished sides).
- measure overall counter dimensions (less wood edging and using longest depth dimensions to allow scribing against wall)
- cut 3/4" MDF then scribe to back wall
- cut 3/4" MDF (or plywood?) strips to build up thickness to 1.5" front, back and wherever top is supported by cabinet box
- attach strips to bottom of scribed MDF
- glue (and pocket screw?) wood edging to MDF - probably 3/4" x 1.5"
- rough cut laminate about 1/2" oversize
- apply contact cement to top of edged MDF and under side of laminate (two coats probably)
- place 1/4" dowling on MDF then lay laminate on dowling
- starting from the centre, remove dowling and roll on laminate
- using edge-trim bit, cut off excess laminate
- using chamfer bit, chamfer top edge of wood/laminate
- cut holes for sink and faucet
- apply glue to cut edges to seal
- install sink & faucet
- apply finish to wood trim

That's how I understand it anyway, so there's at least a couple areas there I'm not sure about and probably many more I'm not aware of.

Bob

[cabinetman]

Some details

I was really just wondering if this is still a reasonable way to build a counter.

Process:
- determine counter overhang (probably 1" or so over doors/drawers and same or more over finished sides).

Usually, base cabinets are 24", add 3/4" for door, with a 25" top, you have 1/4" O/H.

- measure overall counter dimensions (less wood edging and using longest depth dimensions to allow scribing against wall)
- cut 3/4" MDF then scribe to back wall
- cut 3/4" MDF (or plywood?) strips to build up thickness to 1.5" front, back and wherever top is supported by cabinet box
- attach strips to bottom of scribed MDF

These build up strips can be just glued and brad nailed or stapled.

- glue (and pocket screw?) wood edging to MDF - probably 3/4" x 1.5"

I laminate the top before attaching the wood edging. Laminate the top, flush trim, and then with a flat block sander sand edge flat so there is a sharp edge to the laminate. Glue and clamp wood edging to the edge slightly proud of the laminate. Once dry, use a flush trim bit to level the wood to the laminate.

- rough cut laminate about 1/2" oversize
- apply contact cement to top of edged MDF and under side of laminate (two coats probably)
- place 1/4" dowling on MDF then lay laminate on dowling
- starting from the centre, remove dowling and roll on laminate
- using edge-trim bit, cut off excess laminate
- using chamfer bit, chamfer top edge of wood/laminate

This would be OK for doing the laminating BEFORE gluing on the wood edging. I prefer to use 1/2" dowels.

- cut holes for sink and faucet
- apply glue to cut edges to seal
- install sink & faucet
- apply finish to wood trim

That's how I understand it anyway, so there's at least a couple areas there I'm not sure about and probably many more I'm not aware of.

Bob

.

[HarmsWay]

Wow thanks for the information. I'll reduce the overhang as you suggest. I guess laminating before gluing the edging would eliminate any chance of a sharp edge on the laminate too. I could see myself buggering the flush trim step though with my router balanced on the edge. That was the appeal of doing the laminating after the edging. Would I profile the front top/bottom wood edges prior to gluing it on or after. If it's proud the top has to be after I guess. No problem with using MDF for the build-up strips? They don't need to provide any strength. Do I need to reinforce around the sink opening or can I glue some wood under there later if necessary?

Thanks again,
Bob

[cabinetman]

Wow thanks for the information. I'll reduce the overhang as you suggest. I guess laminating before gluing the edging would eliminate any chance of a sharp edge on the laminate too. I could see myself buggering the flush trim step though with my router balanced on the edge. That was the appeal of doing the laminating after the edging. Would I profile the front top/bottom wood edges prior to gluing it on or after. If it's proud the top has to be after I guess. No problem with using MDF for the build-up strips? They don't need to provide any strength. Do I need to reinforce around the sink opening or can I glue some wood under there later if necessary?

Thanks again,
Bob

After you level the top edge of the wood to the laminate surface, then you can do any profiling you want. I don't use pocket screws to mount the wood, just glue and clamps.

You could add front to back strips (like your build up strips) front to back near the sink opening. They get installed between the front and back build-ups, right to the underside of the countertop. If those strips are above dividers, cut the dividers short by 3/4" to add a top cleat to screw to the strips. If the span at the sink is wide, I would recommend that bracing.

I like having a cleat to screw to a buildup. That way you have 1 1/2" to screw into. Make sure you use the right length screws so you don't poke through the top. If you use MDF, you can use coarse thread screws, pilot and countersink the holes. When driving the screws in, don't seat them fast. I like using a cordless as it seems to have more control. When they are near tight, just bump tighten.
.

[HarmsWay]

I'm going to have to reread that bit about cutting the dividers in the morning. I'm not following it.

[HarmsWay]

Thanks again for the help C'man. Your instructions all made made sense once I was doing it. Everything appears to have worked well. The edging looks nice - a great match to the cabinets - and the one laminate seam is pretty much perfect. It took two of us to figure out a procedure to cut for the seam and install it though. I'll take some pics once it's all finished including a tile backsplash.

[cabinetman]

Thanks again for the help C'man. Your instructions all made made sense once I was doing it. Everything appears to have worked well. The edging looks nice - a great match to the cabinets - and the one laminate seam is pretty much perfect. It took two of us to figure out a procedure to cut for the seam and install it though. I'll take some pics once it's all finished including a tile backsplash.

Which seam are you referring to?
.

[HarmsWay]

Two countertops - one 40" straight, the other an L-shape with legs about 70"x96". I had a seam in the L-shape.

[cabinetman]

My method is to place the two tops together as they lay out, but upside down. Machine the fitting for joint fasteners like these, or a similar hardware.

The joint fasteners pull the two tops together tight, but they can be separated. Remove the fasteners and turn the tops right side up as they go. Determining where to join the laminate in relation to the joint in the substrate may depend on where you will be installing. The following method is designed for an on site installation.

It's best to join the laminate in a different orientation to the joint in the substrate. While the tops were upside down, I add a build up to the front and rear edge of 3/4" x 2 1/2". That buildup will overlap the joint in the substrate and it will help keep the joint in the front and back aligned. Your front edge now will be 1 1/2". In lieu of fasteners, you can fit a cleat, like 12" wide to cover the joint in the substrate, screwed to both sections

When ready to prepare the seam for the laminate, your pieces of laminate should be cut slightly over sized. Where the two pieces meet, straightedge both edges with a straightedge and a router with a flush trim bit. Dry fit the joint and dress the edge with a mill file held at a very slight angle to the edge, so the faces will come close together. Once dressed and laid out on the top, draw a few cross lines on the laminate right across the seam, so when you glue them down they will be aligned the same way.

Remove the smaller of the two pieces and draw a fine pencil line on the substrate along the edge of the larger piece. That line will be where the first piece gets glued down. Glue the entire top and both backs of the laminate. When ready to glue down draw the mill file over the seamed edge to clear any glue from the mating edges. Also, check those edges with your finger, but be careful the edges are sharp.

Use dowels, I use 1/2" dowels, and lay across the substrate front to back so they are about 10" apart and stick out past the front edge of the substrate. Lay the first piece down (the largest one) on the line on top of the dowels. Touch the edge down to the pencil line. Slowly, starting at that end pull out the dowels as you go (away from the seam) and lightly press down the laminate.

Take the second sheet (the smaller one), and lay it on the dowels. About 12" from the seam, insert a 1/4" dowel (if all the rest are 1/2"). Line up the seam so the cross hatch pencil lines line up. Touch the edge down. Slowly pull out the dowels as you move away from the seam, but leave the 1/4" in place, and don't press the laminate down, just let it sit on the glue. When you pull out the 1/4 dowel, you will have a slight rise in the laminate which you work down towards the seam to force the two edges together. Once down, use a "J" roller or the edge of a block of wood and work out the air from the center line out of both pieces. Then trim off flush.

Then block sand the edge to glue on the wood edging. Once the wood edging is glued on, you can profile it as you wish. To flatten the height of the wood edge to the laminate if there is a height differential, carefully use a scraper. There, you have it. See how easy it is?
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[HarmsWay]

Yours is probably a better method - especially with one person. Mine appears to have worked though. My two substrate halves were permanently joined so there will be no taking them apart. Oh well, at least my substrate pieces join in a different orientation than the laminate. I glued the 3/4"x1-1/2" beech edging on and planed/scraped the MDF/beech interfaces flat and square. I cut the hole for the sink. It looked like it could have been done before or after. I cut the two laminate joint edges with a single pass though and we installed the 2nd laminate piece a little differently. I worked the alignment of the joint with my friend applying pressure from the other end to keep the joint closed. Once it looked good, I stuck it down, removed the 1/4" dowel then just worked it in back from the joint, removing 1/2" dowels as I went.

After the laminate was on, I routed the sink hole then routed a chamfer on the beech edging.

Bob