Hi, everyone. I had a HVAC guy come over to charge my CAC with refrigerant. He told me that in 2009, the CAC units that use the R-22 refrigerant are going to cease to be supported for parts by the manufacturers, and that in 2010 R-22 will cease to be manufactured, and that in 2012 R-22 will no longer be legaly sold or installed. The industry is going to be required to use a new refrigerant R-410. I don't use the CAC much anymore due to the cost of operation, and have been considering going to window units for 2 houses I own. But when I called GE appliance information they told me that the R-22 will continue to be produced until 2030, so I'm getting mixed information. Any HVAC guys here that know what gives with this R-410 refrigerant ?
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Scare tacticts (an attempt to get you to replace):
January 1, 2004: The Montreal Protocol required the U.S. to reduce its consumption by 35 percent below the baseline cap by January 1, 2004. As of January 1, 2003, EPA banned production and import of HCFC-141b, the HCFC with the highest ODP. This action allowed the United States to meet its obligations under the Montreal Protocol. EPA also issued baseline allowances for production and import of HCFC-22 and HCFC-142b. EPA allocated 100 percent of the U.S. consumption and production caps by allocating both consumption and production allowances to individual companies for HCFC-141b, HCFC-22, and HCFC-142b.
January 1, 2010: After 2010, chemical manufacturers may still produce R-22 to service existing equipment, but not for use in new equipment. As a result, heating, ventilation and air-conditioning (HVAC) system manufacturers will only be able to use pre-existing supplies of R-22 to produce new air conditioners and heat pumps. These existing supplies would include R-22 recovered from existing equipment and recycled.
January 1, 2020: Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.
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Scare Tactics
Thanks ! At least I've got some breathing room. in 2002 I pulled out a 100,000BTU NG furnace from an 880 Sq. Foot house. I used HVAC LoadCalc 5.0 to do the new load calculation and then purchased & installed a 36,000 BTU 91% efficient Payne (Division of Carrier)condensing furnace. The HVAC Contractor I hired was reluctant to do the job, and one of the service tech's refused to work on it, but the owner eventually decided to do it after I signed a waiver, and because I provided them with the load calculation. It's worked perfectly ever since, and reduced the NG consumption by 50-60% as well as the heat bill. I highly recommend HVAC LoadCalc 4.0 as long as you have the presence of mind to do it right, and not "cheat".
I have gone to Wally World and purchased 4- 9,900 BTU air conditioners (@$99 ea.) to put into one 750 Sq. Ft. upstairs (downstairs 3/4 below grade walkout- only needs dehumidifier & a fan) house & the aforementioned 880 Sq. Ft. house in the event one of the CAC units gets sick. Beats paying $500 + labor for a new compressor. Gee, ya know the last time I paid to replace the CAC completely, it was $2K. Hmmmmm.......... I save $1,800 each if I do them both. Hmmmmm.....Comment
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Maybe Got the Number wrong But...
Here it is:
http://www.hvaccomputer.com/hvac/tofc2.asp
If Yer Pullin' a Furnace, Best $49 you ever spent !Comment
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But, assuming the same efficiency rating, why wouldn't a 100,000 BTU unit use the same amount of energy as a 36,000 BTU unit to heat the same # of square feet?Comment
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It's too complicated to explain in a format such as this. Think of the explanation as sort of like having a 460 cubic inch engine in your car using 2-4 barreled carburators vs having a 1600 cc fuel injected engine in the same vehicle.Comment
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And if you're Interested
At least once in your life you're gonna face replacing the furnace in a house. This is not cheap. Aside from the aforementioned HVAC LoadCalc 4.0 program to properly size the new furnace to the existing structure, I also recommend the HVAC-Talk board; This is where I found and purchased a new highly efficient 91%(at the time) furnace for my rental house at wholesale pricing:
http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/
About 90% of Americans are living in houses with the equivalent of "Gas Guzzler" furnaces. Now with the tools to properly size heating appliances to the structure, this is no longer necessary. If you have to do it, you might as well do it right, and save yourself a boatload of cash in the process... and in the future.
This does not apply to CAC. I've come to the conclusion that CAC is an expensive maintenance hog and a white elephant.Last edited by mikewv2k; 09-25-2008, 11:02 AM.Comment
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Oh, a Tip.
If you go to the HVAC-Talk board scroll past all the complicated stuff to the General Discussion area and click on "Residential HVAC". That's where all the slime-liners are hanging out.Comment
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Pretty sure the thermodynamics says it will for the actual heating. It still may have other downsides though.
Not sure if there's an efficiency hit while the system is coming up to temp, if so that could be a downside. Either way you'd have much shorter cycle-on times and a smaller volume of hotter air being blown into the rooms leading to more of a temperature swing from the warm part of the room to the cool areas..Comment
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Load Calculations
LoadCalc 4.0 covers all the variables, which are many & varied. It took the guy (Don Seeth) 15-18 years to get the programming right. He thought it would take maybe 2-3 years when he started out. Because the formulation is so complex, and it took weeks of calculations (it is possible, but not recommended, to do it manually) most HVAC contractors simply opted to throw is an oversized furnace that they felt comfortable would heat the house regardless of the outside temperature & weather conditions.
Speaking in practical terms, I had made several insulation improvements to the 880 Sq. Ft. house, with little practical effect. I had lived in the house for 6 years, and used to work HVAC. I inspected the heat exchanger of the 100,000 NG forced air furnace that was installed in 1971 (this was in 2003), and found pitting & evidence of imminent pinholes in the heat exchanger- Oops, time for a new furnace. Or go to sleep & never wake up.
With the 100,000BTU furnace, what would happen is that the gas would come on for about 7 minutes until the hi-temp cut-off was reached in the heat exchanger, and then the fan would start and the furnace would run for no more that 3-5 minutes. Only on the coldest nights (5-8 degrees above zero- and say 20 mph winds) would the low-temp start switch in the heat exchanger be reached and the gas would come on again to keep the heat exchanger in it's proper temperature range for operation.
In other words, the furnace was using more gas to bring the heat exchanger up to temperature than the furnace was using to heat the house, and the furnace would cycle on-and-off like this all night long.
I looked on the 'Net & found this LoadCalc 4.0 program & tried the sample test version. Once I got up to speed on using that (also highly recommended), I purchased the licensed program for the $49 and did the calculation. I couldn't believe the result, so I went back & did it all over again. Same result; 36,000Btu's. I went back to the house, double checked all my measurements and inputs & ran it for a 3d time. Same results. I then purchased a Payne 40,000BTU(36,000 rated) 91% effecient condensing furnace. When it arrived the 1st two HVAC Contractors I contacted flatly refused to do the installation, so I went to a retired family friend whose son was running the HVAC business & supplied the load calculations & told him I had done it right & triple checked it. He looked at it for about 3 weeks (I think he confirmed the result by doing it manually) then his son sent his top mechanic to quadruple check everything. They then did the job, after I signed a legal waiver, and one of their service technicians refused to work on the job.
The new furnace spends about 40-60 seconds bringing the heat exchanger up to temp, and typically runs about 15-20 minutes during a heating cycle. On the coldest nights (5-8 above zero and 20 MPH wind), it's run for as long as 45 minutes completing a heating cycle, but has adequate heating capacity to keep the house warm. The house cools down for a new heating cycle at exaclty the same rate as before as there were no changes made to the insulation.
The gas consumption was reduced 50%-60%(depends on the weather), and the heating bill showed a corresponding reduction immediately after installation, although this has been mitigated somewhat by now due to increased costs for the NG.
Bottom line: it workes perfectly and has saved me over time the cost of the furnace and the installation.
There's an old saying: "If you want it done right- do it yourself".Last edited by mikewv2k; 09-26-2008, 05:22 AM.Comment
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