Water Pipe Choices

[jackellis]

We're in the early stages of designing and building a retirement home. My wife is worrying about floor plans and curb appeal, while I'm worrying about construction methods, energy efficiency, and cost. We're building in an area that gets cold in winter, though temps rarely drop below the mid-teens. Walls will have 6" of sprayed in foam insulation.

Our default option is to put in copper pipe for hot and cold water. On the other hand, PEX and CPVC seem to have some advantages over copper: lower material cost, lower installation cost, damage resistance if a pipe freezes.

I'd be curious to know whether anyone else has installed one of these new plastic pipes (I know there was a debacle over a different type of plastic pipe) and what their experience has been so far.

[wbsettle]

The debacle you speak of was polybutyl pipe...www.pbpibe.com.

If/when my PB plumbing finally gives out, I'll replumb with PEX. No personal experience, but they've been using it for a number of years on TOH, FWIW. One of the shows I saw recently said it comes with a 25 year warranty when installed by a certified installer. That's longer than install-to-leak window for claims in the PB settlement.

In addition to the tremendous inflation in copper prices over the past few years, I've seen a few news articles that theorize changes in water treatment chemicals may be causing wide scale failure in some municipalities.

-Brent

[eccentrictinkerer]

If code permits, I'd go with Pex. I've used for a couple of small re-model jobs and it really works slick IMHO.

THO uses it a lot and I really like the idea of each location having a home-run back to a manifold. It would make troubleshooting and repair a cinch.

Last summer I plumbed three hose bibbs on the skirt of my screenporch with PEX. It seems that no matter how well I drained the old copper system I still had repairs, due to freezing, each spring. My reasoning is that even if there is a little water in the system the Pex should handle it easily.

I'll let you know in 3 or 4 months if I was right!

[chopnhack]

CPVC is very easy and forgiving to work with. It is also quieter than copper under same conditions.

[Uncle Cracker]

PEX and CPVC are both better than copper, and a lot easier to work with.

[Cheeky]

no doubt in my mind, if i was bldg new, i would go with PEX.

the manifold is just cool.

color-coded....sweet

no worries about residual water b4 sweating.

and supply costs

[jackellis]

PEX and CPVC are both better than copper, and a lot easier to work with.

I understand why they're easier to work and I know they're less expensive with but why do you think they're better? I'm asking because if we decide to go this way, I need to be armed with facts in case our general contractor pushes back.

[Uncle Cracker]

I understand why they're easier to work and I know they're less expensive with but why do you think they're better? I'm asking because if we decide to go this way, I need to be armed with facts in case our general contractor pushes back.

You have pretty much answered your own question. If they are both cheaper and easier to work with, what else do you need? I don't know how it is in CA, but in FL, those folks who have copper almost always end up re-piping down the road, as copper tends to develop pinhole leaks and brittleness after a time. Some say the lightning prevalence in FL contributes to this deterioration. I don't know if that's it, but I've repaired enough leaks and run enough plastic piping to know I will never use copper again.

[LinuxRandal]

My family mechanics (where I wrenched) garage was redone with pex, after the main line burst in multiple places (including 24+" under the tire machine). After the new hard line was put in, the entire place was replumbed with pex, but the plumber wouldn't warranty it if it didn't have a pressure valve (and he said, set to no more then 60 psi). The Pex was rated much higher then the valve installed, but lots of homes and business in this area, still don't have pressure regualtor. The only regulators I have seen fail, dropped the pressure, but I don't know if that is the only way to fail. That would be my only real concern with Pex.

I have been tempted to replumb with it, and increase my line size (small house, one bathroom and 1/2" pipe).

[jackellis]

I don't know how it is in CA, but in FL, those folks who have copper almost always end up re-piping down the road, as copper tends to develop pinhole leaks and brittleness after a time. Some say the lightning prevalence in FL contributes to this deterioration.

Embrittlement is almost certainly due to chemicals in the water rather than lightning strikes.

It appears you have some experience with both and found copper to be less reliable. The only real negatives I've read or heard about have to do with the taste and smell of the water.

Thanks for the replies. This is helpful.

[BrianStark]

It seems that no matter how well I drained the old copper system I still had repairs, due to freezing, each spring.

this is odd... did you close your drain valves after you thought the pipes were dry? I grew up in Minnesota, Plymouth to be exact, and remember by dad going down to the basement each year to close the gate valves for the outside faucets and then placing a small bucket under each drain valve. I may be wrong but I thought he kept the hose bibs opened just a crack in an attempt to prevent a vacuum forming. Now my dad has a newer construction home (2003), and piping is still copper. In the basement there is a single manifold with 4 or 5 gate valves and drain valves. Like in the old home, he keeps his bucket underneath the open drain valves all winter long.

Brian

[williwatt]

Another reason to use CPVC or PEX is that copper thieves won't break into your house and steal it! Here in Tennessee they are stealing AC units and plumbing just to get the copper tubing. I helped a neighbor replace a bunch of pipes with CPVC where they broke into the basement when no one was living in the rental unit and took all of the flex copper.

[rberrybabylon]

If it's copper, ground it well.

Another caution regarding copper: a lack of proper grounding will cause corrosion of copper pipe. We have predominately sandy soil here on Long Island and, after two corrosion caused leaks and repairs, I had to install a heavy copper grounding rod to a depth of ten feet. No troubles since. Also, never had such a problem when living in areas where the soil was clay or silt (allowing easy grounding).

[eccentrictinkerer]

Another benefit of CPVC and Pex is that they are more friction-free than copper. Also, with Pex there are fewer right-angle bends which means less resistance to flow.

[eccentrictinkerer]

this is odd... did you close your drain valves after you thought the pipes were dry? I grew up in Minnesota, Plymouth to be exact, and remember by dad going down to the basement each year to close the gate valves for the outside faucets and then placing a small bucket under each drain valve. I may be wrong but I thought he kept the hose bibs opened just a crack in an attempt to prevent a vacuum forming. Now my dad has a newer construction home (2003), and piping is still copper. In the basement there is a single manifold with 4 or 5 gate valves and drain valves. Like in the old home, he keeps his bucket underneath the open drain valves all winter long.

Brian

My pipe freezing was due to improper installation of the copper lines under my screen porch. The 24 year old plumber didn't follow pipe slope rules. I've had to repair other stuff this guy did, too. (That plumber was me, 37 years ago!)