Contractor's trim work - need your input

[Copper]

Hey guys

I'm down visiting my mother-in-law for Labor Day weekend. She has been having some fairly major renovations done in her house. The people working on it are in the finishing phase right now. Now, I'm not an expert on finishing work (crown molding, baseboard, etc.), but there are a few things that trouble me. First, they use butt joints in the middle of a wall in the crown molding. Aren't you supposed to cut the pieces at an angle so that the joint doesn't show? They also put a butt joint in the middle of the trim above and below a 6 foot window. Now, I'm sure they sell trim long enough to cover that distance.

All of the joints on the door trim corners have gaps in them. I suppose the gaps could be filled with putty, but shouldn't they fit properly.

Also, they seem to have used an obsecene number of nails at the joints of some molding (upwards of 15 or 20!). They haven't done any inside corners on the crown molding, but indicated that they are just going to cut them at a 45 deg. angle. Shouldn't they cope the corners?

I'm trying to figure out what to tell my MIL now and could use your input. Should I tell her to cut her losses and get someone in here that knows what they're doing? Should the people that have done the work reimburse her for the trim that they have (in my opinion) ruined? I don't think she's paying them much for the work they're doing, but right now I'm thinking she's going to have to pay someone else to come it and fix stuff.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks!

[oakchas]

all of your points are valid... unless the trim is going to be painted... but even then... While putty will cover a multitude of sins, it shoould be pretty darn good to begin with...

The corners of the door trim, if the gaps are not too large, can be fixed with a bit of shimming where the outside corners meet. but then it protrudes from the wall a bit so that will need to be caulked with paintable caulk which most contractors on higher quality jobs are doing now (especially since sheetrock is applied to walls that are not in one plane nowadays).

the butt joints should be at 45° angles.
the inside corners should be coped.

I doubt that she will get any refunds. She should have gotten some good references from the contractors doing the work... OTOH, it sounds like she went for the "bargain" rather than the quality of work.

Prolly the best she can do is to get these guys to do it right, or withold payment (or partial payment) until corrected.

One thing I did not too long ago with a sheetrock contractor was to write the check for $500 less than the invoice enclose a letter of explanation and above the endorsement line of the check printed in: "Endorsement of this check constitutes acceptance of payment in full of invoice #xxxxx"

they accepted, I never heard another word.

[messmaker]

I would not be happy but it's not about pleasing you. Finish work is very hard to hide if done poorly. It is pretty hard to correct as well unless it is replaced. I would ask your Mother in law how she thinks it looks and if it does not bother her, let it go. I suspect the bunch doing it don't care about their reputation or it would not be that way to start with.

[mschrank]

The things you describe are unacceptable in my opinion, but Mess has a good point: If your MIL is OK with it, then it will be hard to motivate her to do anything.

Any chance you can be there when the so called "finish carpenters" come back? I suspect they think they can get away with it because it's a "little old lady." If you are there and can call them on their shoddy work, maybe you can guilt them into doing it right (if they even know how).

While I sympathize, it doesn't surprise me. I've been disappointed with the quality of work from nearly every contractor I've hired. That's why I try to do the work myself when I have the time...it's somehow easier for me to accept my own faulty workmanship than that of paid "pros."

Funny, if you go over to a contractor only forum like JLCOnline, you'll see dozens of complaints about overly picky customers who think they know better than the "pro" (don't try to post there...they'll harass you right out of their exclusive "pro" club).

Even if MIL is OK with it, you have to think about re-sale down the road. True, most people probably won't notice, especially if it's paint grade and caulked. But if it's finish grade, something like that can really stand out in an otherwise empty house.

They really are not doing the job right, and if they don't make it right they need to feel some repurcussions. Talk to the GC if there is one, maybe even get a hold of the BBB. Post their names here.

[Copper]

Thanks guys

I should have specified that it's all stained trim. If it were going to be painted, a lot of the stuff could be covered and would not be as obvious. I get the feeling that she thinks the work is okay because she doesn't know any better and doesn't want to get into a confrontation with the workers ("They're nice guys"). She's not what you would call a little old lady and isn't oblivious to the work that's being done. We haven't had a chance to talk to the general contractor about the specifics since he's been out of town. Not everything is done yet and my wife and I are try to figure out whether to send the guys packing and find someone else to finish things up or let them finish and make them repair some of the obvious problems before the final payment.

[Greg.B]

I can pretty much fix anything that is painted...but stained !!!! That will never look right...I would point out the issues with some blue tape when they walk in, and be like, this is not acceptable work, and see what they say. If they contest let them know you will hold final payment until this is complete to your satisfication.

[newbie2wood]

What you described is basically sloppy workmanship, IMO. It is unacceptable to me but is commonly done. Butt joints and 45 degree angle at corners are common. Coping is a sign of excellence but takes too much time and skill.

Since the trims are to be stained, gaps should be minimal. Nails should be evenly spaced and not overdone. Wood putty will not hide the nail holes well even when stained.

Again, the problems you mentioned is common. Most people are not detail oriented and are not bothered by the such appearance if the problems are not exaggerated. Check with your MIL. Speak to the contractor on her behalf if she is unhappy with the work.
________
Glass bowls

[Tom Slick]

I am currently working as a part time trim carpenter and my boss nor myself would put out that kind of work even on paint grade. we pride ourselves in having nearly invisable seams.
miter joints will move due to seasonal differences in humidity but freshly installed work should be tight. these guys are hacks, they are blind nailing the trim into the drywall with a buch of nails to make it "hold". corners done correctly don't need nails but a stubborn joint might need a couple of small nails to make it stay tight.

[Knottscott]

You make some valid points that sounds like there might be sloppy work in progress, but I'd guess I'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how it all ends. Houses are notoriously out of square which makes precision very difficult. It's also often hard to find finish carpenters who are willing to spend the time that a furniture builder might take to make a joint tight.

There are alot of times that things don't go as I planned for me, and that's when the "creativity" starts! How do I work my way out of this mess?! They might pull it off before they're finished. Not sure why they didn't use a scarf joint in the middle of that molding, but when all is said and done, it might all turn out looking ok. So unless, they've really screwed it up, I'd let your MIL enjoy it if she's satisfied. If she's not happy, then by all means speak to the contractor and see what he has to say, but I'd feel her out first.

[Cheeky]

they should have scarf-jointed the abutting crown in the middle, and for crying-out-loud, couldn't they have bought an extra couple pieces of trim so they didn't have to butt up the window trim.

unfortunately, there's not enough Tom Slicks in the business.

[scorrpio]

That sounds like some real shoddy work. I butt moulding only where a wall is too long, and scarf all butts, and cope inside corners even when I am going to paint it. But then, I am not a pro - I just do my own house.

I'd try to shake those guys down to do a proper job - witholding payment if necessary. Remind your MIL that her concern should be not with 'nice guys' but 'nice trim'. The guys will finish and leave, but she'll be living with this trim for years.

[jking]

You mentioned that there is a general contractor involved. I would consider talking to the trim carpenters & then follow up with a discussion with the general contractor. If the sub-contractors are being paid by the general, they will definately have some influence.