Are the hazards of asbestos overstated?

[cgallery]

Subject says it all. I have heard differing opinions. Would like to hear some here.

The popcorn ceiling thread touched this off. Apparently the popcorn texture in the early 70's and prior included asbestos, and now removal has to be done according to hazmat standards.

While I'm certain exposure has its dangers, I do have concerns that asbestos has become one of those "causes" that has taken on a life of its own. Lots of interested parties (like lawyers and professional removal firms and regulators) now depend on touting the dangers of the product because their livelihoods depend on it.

Am I completely nuts?

[TheRic]

I think it has gotten out of hand!!! I have heard them go into a school, hazmat suits, rooms sealed off, etc. take is outside in a open wheelbarrow dump it in a uncovered dump truck, then drive the dump truck out of town uncovered. How is it THAT dangerous 1 second, the not the next?!

I think there is a lot of things that are getting blown out or proportion. Mercury is another in my opinion. I remember not long ago playing with it as a kid, on the kitchen table. Now it seems like they evacuate a whole town if a mercury thermometer is broken.

It always amazes me how one day something is safe / good for you / best thing since sliced bread, then BOOM it's the most dangerous / evil thing on the planet.

[Slik Geek]

While I'm certain exposure has its dangers, I do have concerns that asbestos has become one of those "causes" that has taken on a life of its own. Lots of interested parties (like lawyers and professional removal firms and regulators) now depend on touting the dangers of the product because their livelihoods depend on it.

We tend to elevate certain risks well above others. Most Americans regularly handle one of the more toxic, cancer-causing, volatile, flammable, explosive substances readily available, and we don't give it a second thought. (Gasoline).

I tend to agree with you. I'm glad that the long-term harmful affects of asbestos fiber inhalation has become known and publicized. Precautions are proper and good. The knee-jerk reaction to tear it out of every school, thereby disturbing otherwise safe asbestos fibers was a waste of tax dollars.

[JR]

It's an interesting question. After Bigguyz said he was going to go ahead and do the work on his house I was at first prompted to shout, Chicken Little style, "Don't do it."

So I started reading up on it. I still don't know the practical risk for a homeowner doing a one-time repair. It seems evident that risk increases with the duration of exposure. Also, if you smoke asbestos exposure offers much higher risk to health.

Tthe fibers are insidious little buggers that scare the bejeesus out of me. Their shape is sort of corkscrew, I guess, causing the fibers to burrow into the lining of the lungs, causing inflamation. This shape also means that disturbed fibers in the home will tend cling to walls and other surfaces, ripe for later disturbance and further risk.

It may take 20 or 30 years for exposure to asbestos to result in health problems.

Here is an ok FAQ on topic. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=19711
The site has a six-page article on asbestos, risks, diagnosis, and treatment. It's pretty informative.

As to whether you're completely nuts, let's leave that discussion for another day...

JR

[430752]

Yes and No

Asbestos is certainly dangerous, and repeated exposure is the problem. It is no joke as I understand it. On the other hand, single exposure seems to be blown out of hand. Of course, there are those that even single exposure will be bad and cause problems, but I think one time exposure is low risk.

Now, then, the question is what is single exposure. I would guess that removing an asbestos sleeve from a hot water pipe is low risk provided you get it in one or two pieces. But demolisihing a ceiling with a sledge? That may be single expsoure, but hardly low risk as the fibers will be everywhere. And supposedly they're so small you can't vacuum them up easily since they'll pass thru most (all?) commerical/residential filters and be blown throughout a house. Sweeping just scatters them. That's why wetting the stuff down (to keep down dust) and special filters are required.

I dunno, if it was a small job I could see someone trying it themselves, but a larger job? Even once I don't think it'd be a good idea. Of course, I'm not an expert nor do I play one on tv.

Curt J.

[BigguyZ]

Well I kinda laid out my opinion in the other thread, but just to reiterate my thoughts in a more appropriate place...

How prevalent was asbestos? Wasn't it put in just about every material used in building a home? So, unless you are assuming that the occupants never scratched a wall or did anything to it, a huge number of people should be dead or dying from this asbestos outbreak of the 70's. This stuff was used for a long time. Sure, if you are a contractor or someone who has long periods of high levels of contact, it's not a good thing. But it's not going to kill you if you do a small project yourself and take the proper precautions.

Dust of any kind isn't the best to breathe, so using a respirator is a good idea. If you use a good quality one you should be fine for a small project. Use a shop vacuum with a HEPA filter to clean the mess, and dispose of the waste properly. With my project, after I remove the texture I'm going to repaint the ceiling and walls anyways. I have carpet flooring, but I plan on tearing that out. I definitely don't have the $$ to be hiring a professional abatement company...

I think that since this whole thing was such a huge money maker as far as lawsuits go, the EPA and other companies have become reactionary in order to prevent future losses from lawsuits. And Because there is such a fear of this- largely generated from the lawsuits- companies can come in and charge a ton for the removal.

I liken this to mold. It's bad, yes, but taking reasonable steps can protect you and deal with the problem yourself. Mold hasn't only been around for the last few years, but I never heard about this as the hot-button-health issue it is now prior to a few years back...

Just my opinion, if I'm wrong I accept no liability if you die from asbestos. This is only the conclusion I have come to using logic. Please don't sue me.

[whitecobra]

From the medical side what I can tell you is that there is NO safe level of asbestos exposure
What that means in laypersons terms is that we in the health care profession have not found a level of asbestos that at which no body damage will occur.

THAT is scary. Every drug is toxic in fact all drugs are poisons. Not all poisons are drugs but herein lies the issue.

The issue of how much we can "tolerate" has never been determined (and I am NOT sure if it was well tested). Once the thread started on popcorn I asked some colleagues to see what they have found in their careers. From what I can find mesothelioma is very aggressive and CAN occur with ONE exposure but YES it takes years show up.

I have a partner who was JUST diagnosed with it who 25 years ago removed the covering on the boiler pipes in his basement with his father and brother. It was a one day job fairly aggressive work. They did were long sleeve clothing wore inexpensive elastic masks and wore "Playtex type" gloves.

Today the dad has passed of lung cancer the brother is gone and my partner is on the way they are suggesting that his mesothelioma has progressed enough that he might have 12 months if the chemo works well.

So this was ONE exposure to a fairly controlled amount. The bigger issue was an IS the situation of brakes on cars

Mechanics have ROUTINELY blown the dust off with air before replacing pads. Now we are talking exposure. It is one thing to brake chunks off pipes or even scrape pellets off a MOIST ceiling but aerosolizing asbestos from DRY brake pads is a PERFECT situation where exposure into the lungs is significant and direct

Jury is still out I guess reading most of your posts but like PCBs and Benzene this one is nasty. As for gasoline it is WAY not nearly as deadly as PCBs and or benzine and from what I am reading not as much as asbestos either

Dr D

[cwsmith]

I had an uncle who died from asbestosis, but he spent years working in the shipyards applying the stuff. Unquestionably I wouldn't want to go that way. But how much or how little exposure is a big question and I don't think there's a definitive answer.

I do know that when I was a teen back in the 60's, it was still used a lot, especially in the heating trade. Also asbestos ceiling tiles, flooring, and even it certain types of wall board or who knows what.

The problem is that the "alarm" caused by asbestos has probably caused more damage than it saves. Many homeowners and small businesses are absolutely scared about possible asbestos contamination of their properties. So much so, that we dare not investigate what materials in our homes or offices contain this danger. Many sheet and tile flooring products contain asbestos and while it would be good to know as you do renovation work, the fact is that the manufacturers of these decades old products are not about to tell you and if you try to get your local or state government's opinion, you're inviteing what could be an overwhelming expense, that could bankrupt yourself or render you home useless unliveable, until the EPA cleans it up, at our expense.

Even the very common insulation "vermiculite" (a poured insulation that is mined from a couple of locations in the U.S.) has gotten a bad rap because one of U.S. mining areas had asbestos deposits laced through the vermiculite deposits. Yet the second mining area had no asbestos contamination. The end result however is that "vermiculite" is now synomous with "asbestos" contamination.

In my current home, every heating and cooling duct joint is taped with asbestos (yes, even the return cold-air ducts), and the entire plenum was covered with sheets of the stuff. When we moved in back in the late 70's, I simply painted over the stuff with a sealer and then a couple of coats of vinyl latex, and then, where I could reach I applied duct tape.

So last winter (2005), the cast iron heat exchanger cracked and I have it replaced quickly. A subsidiary of my local gas company dispatched a crew to replace the unit and I immediately warned them that I had asbestos. (Hey, they were going to discover it anyway!). I was scared to death what this was going to cost, but to my great surprise, they simply taped plastic around the heaviest areas and then removed everything in plastic bags, vacuuming along the way. Stuff was removed and the project completed with everything taking place within a couple of days. No problems at all.

The main thing is to not scatter the dust around the house and ensure that things are properly disposed of. Whether they made too little of the task or not, may be questionable. But they have a great reputation, seemed to know what they were doing and appeared to take precautions. They also used that metallic tape to cover all the remaining pipe joints.

CWS

[Kristofor]

From the medical side what I can tell you is that there is NO safe level of asbestos exposure
Dr D

That sentence is one of my personal pet peeves (this is directed at the public health industry not you Doc)

It is made by using a linear no-threshold model for risk versus exposure. It's a really really simplified way of making things sound scary to folks with limited science education.

In such a model the same statement can be applied to sunshine, alcohol, vinyl chloride, gasoline, and wood dust.

My grandfather died from asbestosis as well, but he was a sheet metal worker who worked in clouds of the dust for decades. It is a very good idea to limit asbestos exposure, and stop using asbestos in many/most situations. However, I think the Chicken Little approach (NO safe level of XYZ) is a fear tactic that’s used because it’s easier than education.

[whitecobra]

Kris
When a layperson reads No Safe Level it means something when a professional reads it (from sources in the know) it means something totally different
To my limited knowledge there IS a safe level to gasoline sunshine and even benzine
From what I read the body can react to even one fiber of asbestos
To me that is WAY different then reading that water can be poisonous (and yes it can in fact you will die if you consume 8 gallon in a 12 hour period)
What I look for when I decide on the safety of something is the amount of the "something" and the duration of exposure that the "something" needs to be in contact with me to cause issue
Since asbestos is inhaled the likelihood is that once inhaled the time of exhalation can be YEARS (there is no lung release valve to purge the lungs every 8 hours or 2400 miles) So that leaves me with how MUCH is too much since the issue of how long is already dead issue
If how much is left to "one fiber" this is a way bigger deal then many want to accept
I am the guy remember who has taken ALL safety guards off my saws and the like
I almost NEVER use a mask and really never use ear protection. I only wear my everyday glasses not safety glasses and I wear surgical scrubs in my shop all the time (a major No No since they are baggie and can easily get sucked into a moving part)
With that in mind I am the perfect opposite of "chicken little" and I never thought once about Asbestos until the "other thread" started a week or so ago
After I called around the issue is HUGE and getting WAY bigger
This is a BILLION dollar disease. The ramifications of it will likely never be added up it is HUGE. Since it has gone on for so many years most people who have died from related diseases have been classified as dying of "other reasons" not included in the tally for asbestos related deaths
This is going to dwarf most things we "count on" as safe but aren't
Dr D

[cgallery]

Kris
From what I read the body can react to even one fiber of asbestos

But it seems the magic word here is *can*. After all, if one fiber guarantees asbestosis, we're all going to die from it.

How is it that a man can smoke half his life, give up smoking, and have perfectly pink lungs by the time he dies? Yet, if he inhales some asbestos, he is now a ticking time bomb that can't be diffused?

Also, I'm leery of the 25-year stuff. That is one slow-moving carcinogen. I can't imagine how one could get cancer and then make the leap that a single asbestos fiber inhaled 25-years previous was the cause. Mind you, I'm a skeptic. To my own detriment sometimes.

What did Nostradamus say about asbestos?

[tojan19]

I love this thread. This is the same BS I argue about with people when it comes to radiation (I'm a Nuclear Engineer). Of course a bunch will hurt you and its possible one gamma ray / asbestos fiber could do you in but what is the real risk? Your probably more likely to have a drunk driver plow his car into your living room and kill you while your watching TV.
One of the biggest risk factors I've heard about with lung cancer & mesothelioma (sp?) is being a smoker also. You would probably get more asbestos from the cigarettes.

If I ever find the guy who came up with the linear no threshold model I'm going to *&^* him (&^*^^%$^*&.

[Slik Geek]

From the medical side what I can tell you is that there is NO safe level of asbestos exposure
What that means in laypersons terms is that we in the health care profession have not found a level of asbestos that at which no body damage will occur.

Jury is still out I guess reading most of your posts but like PCBs and Benzene this one is nasty. As for gasoline it is WAY not nearly as deadly as PCBs and or benzine and from what I am reading not as much as asbestos either
Dr D

Benzene is a significant component of gasoline. It is quite toxic and a carcinogen.

To my limited knowledge there IS a safe level to gasoline sunshine and even benzine

Apparently I didn't make my point clear enough. A significant portion of the American population breathes gasoline fumes on a weekly basis, some much more often. Plus, it is quite common for people to accidentally splash a bit of it onto their skin on occasion. Frequent exposure to toxic, cancer-causing substances by a large population strikes me as a much greater risk to the general public.

BTW - OSHA has defined safe levels of exposure for gasoline, benzene AND asbestos fibers.

[Kristofor]

If I ever find the guy who came up with the linear no threshold model I'm going to *&^* him (&^*^^%$^*&.

Amen!

Radiation was exactly the "no safe level" line I was thinking about.

Asbestos isn't good to breath. People should avoid breathing it. It's good that it's been removed from most new products. None of those items are in dispute, but the risk in most people's lives is simply very small.

• There were ~1,100,000 new cases of skin cancer in the US last year.
• There were about 2,500 new cases of Mesothelioma diagnosed.
• You're ~440x more likely to get skin cancer.
• The number one risk factor for skin cancer, ultraviolet radiation.
• The number one source of ultraviolet radiation, the sun.
• Lets ban sunshine?

[430752]

Yes, ban sunshine

And good look at that too, although here in the northeast for the last week, I'd say you were quite successful!

Look, i'm on the side of asbestos not being the death knell the Others (meds, lawyers, media, etc.) would have us believe, but on the other hand to just say a bunch of stuff is dangerous and therefore we can put the lid back on asbestos is crazy. The fact of the matter is the stuff is dangerous and there's a reason why its banned or whatever. While it may be statistically low, that may be because people realize the risks and either call in pro's or take extra care when working near the stuff. Plus, even if the risks were statistically low, wouldn't you still be careful? Thumbs getting lopped-off on a table saw are statistically low, but are you gonna leave your thumb hanging in the blade's path?

Curt J.