Water Heater

[r1968]

Noritz or Rinnai or Takagi

Hi
I have a Noritz N084 and the homes accross from us have Rinnai. Great units and have had no problems. Extremely efficient and there is a good rebate that will make the price very competitive with the storage units. These units can easily accomodate multiple simultaneous use and are the only way to go.
Absolutely the best option for water heaters

--raj

[SHADOWFOX]

Guys the plumber came and he said that he can replace the traditional tank heater (50 gallon) with the same model Bradford 50 gallon for $984.00. Is this a good price?

[mschrank]

Guys the plumber came and he said that he can replace the traditional tank heater (50 gallon) with the same model Bradford 50 gallon for $984.00. Is this a good price?

Sounds a bit high to me, but probably not too out of line with what others would charge in your area.

I know you mentioned that you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself, but I'd encourage you to give it a go. At the very least, you could buy the new heater. The day before the plumber comes, take out your old heater and get the new one in position. Just let the plumber do the connections. You might be without hot water for a few hours, but you can deal with that. This is what I did when I switched to the tankless heater (see my comments in the thread referenced above). I saved hundreds.

The important steps are getting the water and gas turned off. After that, it's a matter of draining the old tank (should be a spigot near the bottom to hook up a hose). Unscrew the gas pipe and water connections. Here's a very concise description: http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/pl_wat...499184,00.html A bit more online searching or any basic "home improvement" or Handyman type of book will be more detailed.

You can do this.

Before doing all this, though, have you determined where the water is coming from? Is it coming out of the TPR valve (looks sort of like a spigot on the top or near the top of the tank)? If so, that's a real to replace. Problem is, replacing a bad TPR may not solve the problem, as you might need to add an expansion tank. That's also something you could do yourself, but is more involved than simply replacing the whole tank (new plumbing etc).

[SHADOWFOX]

Thanks, Mike!

I just went ahead and hired them for the job.. I watched them the whole entire time they were doing it so that I can learn stuff. They seem to have done a great job and the Bradford White water tank looks great and seems to have great features. They also provide a 6 year warranty on the parts and 1 year on the labor. The only thing that concerns me is the receipt did not list the labor cost nor the cost of the water tank, it just indicated that they installed a 50 gallon water heater and the warranty info for parts and labor.

I called the company and got connected with the plumber that did the job and he said that they do a flat rate of $984.00 on the work that is the reason why they do not list out the details on the receipt but he said that he can fax me a new receipt that list out the model# and serial# so that I don't run into any problems if I need to call them for warranty related repairs.

Is this normal? Did I get scammed? I feel so stupid and felt like I should have done more research prior to calling somebody to check it out. But at the same time I am also relieved that we don't have to worry about our basement flooding because of that damaged water heater that was filled with sediments at the bottom.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[FL Buckeye]

Whats done is done so you might as well just be satisfied that they did a good job. Did they have to get a permit and have their work inspected by any local inspector? Most areas in IL are that way. FWTW, a gas 50gal water heater with 6 yr warranty can be had for $350 or less, a 12 yr warranty for $450 or less, plus install. Electric will be a little cheaper. A neighbor had Sears install a new one. If you want to compare, just stop at a Sears and ask for a price. The Sears installer will usually add more to the price as your install will never be "normal" to them. I'm sure we all have paid too much sometime for something. At least you had it replaced before there was any water damage. As for me, I will replace it myself until my health says I can't.

[JimD]

If the water heater cost ~$300 for the heater so ~$600 for labor. How many hours where they there? I would think a couple hours for two people. If you paid $150/hr I would say that is a bit steep. If they spent 4 hours (which seems like a long time if they knew what they were doing) it would be more reasonable.

A thing to think about with a tankless is that the heat input is MUCH higher than a regular hot water heater. You have to have a GOOD source of gas. I doubt I have enough pressure. That is something you might need a professional to assess. A simple water heater replacement is not worth hiring a plumber in my book but if it bugs you, it could be money well spent.

Jim

[scorrpio]

Were you scammed? Quite possible. If the problem was a faulty TPR valve, you could have fixed it yourself for about $10 in about 30 minutes.

Really, heater diagnostic procedure goes like this:
Determine where water is coming from. Your heater will have a valve near its top with a pipe coming out and pointing down to the floor. Put a bucket under that pipe. The heater also will have a drain near the bottom. Put some pan under that drain. Also, visually inspect the hot/cold connections on top of heater. Do they look corroded? Is there water/traces of water on top of heater? Next time you see water, if it is in the pan under drain, the drain is leaking. You need to drain the heater and replace the drain. If water is on the floor, the tank itself is leaking and needs to be replaced. If water is in the bucket, it came from the TPR valve, and several things may have happened:

Faulty TPR valve or Excessive pressure/temperature in the system.
HD sells a Watts pressure gauge for about $10. It fits the drain outlet and has an extra arrow that retains highest observed pressure. Connect it to the drain, open drain, measure pressure. Most home systems operate in 60-80psi range. If yours is above 100, you have excessive pressure. Leave any hot water faucet running for a while to relieve thermal expansion pressure. If pressure gauge still well above 100, you have incoming water overpressure - the pressure regulator needs to be checked. If it falls to 80 or less, but builds back up to 130+ when hot water does not get used, what you need is an expansion tank. A pretty simple install.
Leave the gauge connected. Next time you see water discharge from TPR valve, see what max pressure was. If it was well under 150, TPR valve needs replacement.

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Now, tankless vs tank. Really, most modern tank heaters have very good insulation. The heat loss in the piping far outstrips loss in the tank. Really, replacing central tank with a central tankless should have little to no impact on heat loss. Point-of-use heaters do not lose heat to pipes, but my understanding is that their efficiency is quite lower than that of large units.

The best configuration, IMO, is the one not seen very often - an indirect tank. In homes that use hydronic heating, there is a central boiler. An indirect heater is a tank with a coil passing through, that coil is piped to boiler as priority zone. Boiler pumps 190 degree water through the coil when heater aquastat calls for it, heating water in the tank. Has about 5-6x times hot water production of same size electric or gas unit. (i.e. a 40-gallon tank paired to a 105kBTU boiler will yield over 200 gallons of 120 degree water (assuming 50 degree inlet water) in first hour. Biggest problem with this system is it only works in houses that have a bolier and hydronic heat. Furnace-based systems need not apply. For them, only option for strong hot water flow without using multiple tanks would be a tankless type unit.