Tankless hot water heater pricing

[cgallery]

I have decided to replace my current hot water heater and I would like to use a tankless. Started calling some plumbers and leaving my information for someone to get back to me. Called four local shops and only one seemed real confident that they do tankless.

I'm wondering if there is some rule of thumb about how powerful a unit I need? I have a one full-bath, a half-bath, a dishwasher, washer/dryer for clothing, and that is about it.

Also, the one that seemed to know their stuff asked if I was going to supply my own unit for them to install, or if I wanted them to supply. I guess I could probably save $100-$200 if I source my own (don't know this for sure), but if there is a problem with it I'm kinda stuck paying for extra plumber time. Any thoughts on this?

I had hoped to have the new one installed pretty close to where the current one is located. However, there is no wall there. Can they attach the new unit to the chimney that is directly behind the current unit? Does it need to go on a plywood board, or directly on masrony?

Are some brands better than others?

Any primers to read on having this done?

Thanks!
Phil

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I would not want to install the system directly on the chimney, though a qualified installer can advise.

Bosch Aquastar really seems to be the market leader in tankless water heaters. They are becoming more popular due to the tax credit you will get for the installation of the system (check details out on IRS site for approved models). Bosch is sold at Lowes that I know of and can often be found at a decent price on ebay.
There are certainly pluses and minuses to the systems and I think it comes down to personal decision. Energy efficiency is great. Do you have propane, natural gas or electric? I would imagine that the gas products would out perform the electric products, ie heat from fire is more instantaneous but they say that electric based heaters have come a long way.
http://www.tanklesswater.com/ shows the Bosch on sale for $599. It qualifies for the maximum $300 tax credit.
For general info : http://www.tanklesswater.com/ed_howitworks.asp

[vaking]

Tankless unit heats water as you need it. That means that the size of the unit does not depend on how many baths you have in your house but how much hot water you consume at the same moment (worst case scenario). Do you plan to use dishwasher, clothes washer and take a shower at the same time? Here is some link:

http://www.tanklesswater.com/ed_factors-to-consider.asp

[mschrank]

Do a search here using "Tankless Water" and you'll see several threads where we've discussed it.

One word of warning...you're likely to run into a lot of nay-sayers. This is a relatively "new technology" in the US, so a lot of folks are uncomfortable with it. True, there are disadvantages:

• Higher up-front cost
• May take hot water a bit longer to get to your tap

But for me the advantages won:

• Never run out of hot water
• More efficient
• HUGE SPACE SAVINGS
• Tax break (in my state, anyway)

I saved quite a bit by buying online and doing most of the install myself. I bored a 4" hole through my foundation wall, hung the unit, and did a bit of rough plumbing. The warranty on my unit is only valid if installed by a licensed plumber, so I called them in to do the final hookups.

You will want to locate as close as possible to an outside wall, as the vent piping for these things is crazy expensive.

As far as the "size" of the unit, you'll find enough info online to calculate the right model for your needs. Mine is a 199,000 btu unit, and easily supplies two hot water draws at once. Given that you only have one shower, you can probably get by with a bit smaller and less expensive unit...just don't run the dishwasher when you are showering.

Another thing to consider is the size of the incoming gas line. You'll want to make sure it's big enough to supply the water heater and all the other appliances that might need gas at the same time. The website I referenced above allows you to download all the manuals so you can see the specs.

[kramer katt]

We've had a pre Bosch Aquastar for 15 years running only the laundry. Worked great until water sensor died and gas wont ignite now. Had real problem with finding a plumber to repair. But I just received a Bosch Aquastar 125FX that was on amazon for $499 and free shipping that I plan to install myself. It is claimed to heat water for ONE large demand or TWO small demand at once. I have found that this is the weakness of all tankless. The demand over time (ie all day long) is almost limitless but the output for concurrent use is limited. Only real complaint on the old one was lighting the pilot everytime was a PITA. New 125FX has electronic ignition so looking forward to that.
BTW the FX model also has a fan induced draft flue so it may not be for most applications the 125B is the normal unit. And ALL seem to take larger gas line than most 40-50 gallon tank type. Like 3/4 to One inch depending on run.
ALSO
be advised that CEC has been the US distributor of the Bosch for a number of years and right now Bosch USA is taking that over so there may be some warrantee and or parts issues if you get an old stock model.
kk
as mschrank hit post button one minute before me I'll add agreement with all he said

[Tom Slick]

I reserched them awhile back. check out Rennai water heaters, they are superior to Bosch in my opinion.
there are many upsides, but...

repair parts availability?
repairman knowledge?
Both of those are because they are not common yet, what happens when you have no hot water on a friday night?
new exhaust ducting needed.
may need new natural gas piping.
if you have really cold ground water the unit may not be able to raise the temp quickly enough and you will only get warm water.

a solar water heater is an excellent addition to a tankless. it makes the whole system even more effecient.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Did he verify that he has LP/LG system or electric? I re-read and I could not find that answer. I kind of assue that if he had LP/LG that the replacement will be the same. And if he did have LP/LG system, couldn't the prior duct work be used?

[mschrank]

And if he did have LP/LG system, couldn't the prior duct work be used?

I also assumed LP/LG. When I bought mine, I was told that I would need to use ducting specifically rated for the this type of application, and that my existing ducting for the old tank wouldn't work. Makes sense once I saw the new stuff...all stainless steel whereas the old stuff was PVC. Funny, despite how efficient these things are, an awful lot of heat goes out the flue....

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I also assumed LP/LG. When I bought mine, I was told that I would need to use ducting specifically rated for the this type of application, and that my existing ducting for the old tank wouldn't work. Makes sense once I saw the new stuff...all stainless steel whereas the old stuff was PVC. Funny, despite how efficient these things are, an awful lot of heat goes out the flue....

My home is 6 years old and the duct work is steel, not PVC. You are correct in that A LOT of heat escapes as a byproduct which amazes me that using PVC meets code!

[cgallery]

Okay, more information.

First, to answer a question, my home uses natural gas.

I had a plummer out this morning to quote the installation of a unit. They sell one that is made in Japan by Noritz. The smallest one he had was $999 retail. But by the time he added parts and service, he was up to $3800. Which I think is extreme.

The only real cost factor, as far as I was concerned, was running a new gas pipe from the meter. My current in-house piping is 3/4". The units require a 1" pipe. But after I started asking how he planned on doing the work, he said they were going to run a solid pipe to just inside the house, and then run stainless steel flex pipe within the house. I know the stainless can't be cheap, but it can't be that expensive, either.

I tried to figure out what had to be done before he got there, and essentially the unit has to be mounted to the wall. It has to be vented to outside (18" directly above unit works for my install). A new gas pipe has to be run (approx. 40 feet). The unit has to be connected to the cold water supply (about 10') and into the hot water piping (another 10').

The plumber tried telling me it was nearly an all day job for two men.

So I've just talking with a plumber I've used before. He has never actually done a tankless. But I'm going to purchase a Bosch this weekend, mount to the wall, pull 1" flexible gas pipe, put the vent in, and get it ready for him to make the connections. He will do this for $99/hour, so I should be able to considerably beat FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!

I figured that after I buy the materials this weekend and read the instructions, I'll have him come out next week to hear my game plan (an extra $99). Then I'll do as much as he tells me and then call him to finish it up.

Anything I should watch out for?

Thanks!
Phil

Thanks!

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Okay, more information.

First, to answer a question, my home uses natural gas.

I had a plummer out this morning to quote the installation of a unit. They sell one that is made in Japan by Noritz. The smallest one he had was $999 retail. But by the time he added parts and service, he was up to $3800. Which I think is extreme.

The only real cost factor, as far as I was concerned, was running a new gas pipe from the meter. My current in-house piping is 3/4". The units require a 1" pipe. But after I started asking how he planned on doing the work, he said they were going to run a solid pipe to just inside the house, and then run stainless steel flex pipe within the house. I know the stainless can't be cheap, but it can't be that expensive, either.

install for me. I purchased the largest capacity Whirlpool Gold at Lowes and all supplies for less than $600 and did it myself in a morning. Of course my system runs on electric and the electronics could fail and I would have to replace it in 10 years (this was the lame argument against this option by the salesperson). I advised he was right I could replace the system 5 more times with the money left over. Seriously, that guy is nuts.

Ummm, I don’t know about that stainless flex pipe either. NG is a very low pressure system and I can’t imagine you would need a stronger pipe than the flex pipe used in the much higher pressure LP systems, which is very inexpensive. Besides, how much price can you really attribute to this stainless steel flex pipe?

I think you are definitely heading in the right direction. Any plumber should be able to install one of these just as easily as a regular NG hot water heater.

[mschrank]

Okay, more information.

Anything I should watch out for?

Thanks!

Sounds like a good plan and goes to show it pays to get a second opinion, huh?

The only potential problem I see is finding the 1" flex pipe. My unit calls for 3/4" ID, and I looked high and low. Even went to a plumbing store in Portland that advertises "If we don't have it, it doesn't exist" (or similar). It does exist, but I could only find it on websites that don't sell retail. The plumbing store above said they could not order it.

If you find some let me know where! My current unit (Takagi TK1-S) is great, but doesn't quite reach its potential due to the undersize flex pipe I'm currently using.

I would also question the need for stainless steel flex, and suspect it might cost a good chunk of change....