Plumbing question - winterizing a house

[agent511]

I asked this question twice on a plumbing forum - and did not get a single answer. Perhaps someone here has some experience with this:

We (jointly) own a home in Atlantic City that is not occupied during the winter. We turn the heat down to 52 degrees. With the increased gas prices, the heating bill this past winter was as high as $600 for 1 month.

It has hot water (hydrionic) heat with radiators. 2 zones. It is roughly 100 years old, with lathe and plaster walls.

The home has four floors, the lowest floor is a seperately zoned unused apartment with 2 bathrooms and a washing machine. The upper three floors have 7 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, a washing machine, and a dishwasher. We are interested in the facts regarding having the heat shut off altogether. WHat is entailed - [draining the radiators, boiler, overflow tank. Antifreeze in washing machine and dishwasher}??? How expensive should this be? WHat would the trade-off be in terms of damage to walls or furniture? What is the risk of a pipe or fixture not fully drained or 'missed' that end up freezing and bursting? Do you need to bring in a plumber in the spring to get everything up and running normally? If we keep the heating system off continually all 12 months, can seals dry up and fail if ever started again?

Any information you can supply to help make an informed decision would be helpful. I know it was a lot of questions. Thanks in advance.

[TheRic]

Here are a few things I know (or think I know).

Hot water boilers (and the piping) will last a long time, reason being that the water inside them never changes. By adding new water (and it’s impurities) and/or air you risk rusting them out quicker. I don’t know how much quicker. One of the reasons water boilers last 20+ years, hot water heaters last about 5 years. Was told this when I was having my water boiler checked out years ago.

Any rubber seals in you water lines (heat or regular) would risk dry rotting. We (my family) have mobile toilets (flush, like in your house) that we rent out to festivals, fairs, weddings, church picnics, etc. Over the winter we drain the water and store the trailers. Every couple of years we have to change the rubber seals since they dry rote out.

I have been told that you should never put drywall in a unheated garage since the drywall will collect moisture, and will be junk in several years. I would think the same would be true for plaster walls, in a unheated house.

Have you given it any thought to insulating the place better? How about letting someone live there while your gone. They can live there for free, but they have to pay for the utilities. Maybe some business would be interested in leasing it. They can keep their people there verses in a hotel for several months.

[jAngiel]

It may help to try turning the heat down to 42. I would think that as long as it's above freezing the pipes would be okay.

Take that with a grain of salt though, I live in Oklahoma. It gets freakin cold here but it doesn't last but a couple of weeks at most before it ususally warms up to something above freezing again.

Additional insulation would definitely help. Isn't there something out there that you can add to current plumbing that keeps the water circulating. If I remember correctly they use it for instant hot water in buildings that were not originally plumbed for it.

[dlminehart]

I'd second the remarks about insulation and thermostat lowering And would add that you could probably benefit from some weatherstripping, and perhaps some thermal window upgrades. 10% of your heat could be lost through single pane windows. And another 10-20% through cracks around windows, doors, and under baseboards between wall and floor.

Energy is not going to get much cheaper, and these efficiency improvements will just get more valuable over time. Plus they'll make the house more comfortable.

[agent511]

The windows have been replaced with vinyl double-glazed units. I don't think there is any insulation, and retrofitting that is not a practical option in a house this old and this size.

I think the 42 degree idea is what we will end up doing.

[buckeye]

You need to be careful on how low you set the temperature. Depending on where the pipes are routed throughout the house, certain areas will be much colder than the temperature at the thermostat. Make sure the water supply is shut off in case the pipes would freeze.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Be very, very careful where you set the thermosat. Under your homeowner/dwelling fire policy you have a duty to maintain heat at a level to prevent freezing. Failure to do so will result in a denial of any ensuing water damage claims caused by burst/frozen pipes.
If no one is going to be there I highly recommend having a plumber/heating guy come in and winterize the system and shut the heat off completely. Shutting off the water supply and draining lines complies with the policy provisions. In the last 2 years I have been to many Dept of Insurance hearings over claim denials due to lack of heat. Usually the company wins the case if it has documented the failure to protect the property.

[agent511]

Thanks Jeff. I asked the question in Ridgid's Plumber's section, and not a single plumber has answered the question as to exactly what specifics afe involved, and what the costs may be.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Thanks Jeff. I asked the question in Ridgid's Plumber's section, and not a single plumber has answered the question as to exactly what specifics afe involved, and what the costs may be.

It can't be that much (though given the size and scope of you specific project it may be a little higher), as lots of ultra cheap Florida snow birds have it done when they go South for the winter. I would think it would be way less than $600, more in $200-$300 range. Plus you can always watch them and see what they do to secure the pipes. Obviously draining HW heater and regular plumbing system is quite simple. The hot water heating system is the bigger issue and certainly the one very prone to fail and cause damage.

Poteable water wise you need to (depending upon water source and sewage system) :
Drain pressure tank, open all faucets, drain pump and run a second or two to get water out of lines (don;t forget to turn breaker off to the pump, saw that one cause $100,000 + in damages), flush toilets and get all water out of the flush tanks (they WILL freeze and crack), drain flex hose in showers and sinks, drain water softeners, drain water heater. Get all water out of hoses and internal components of washing machine and dishwasher. After shutting off water supply run the washing machine through the fill cycle for a few seconds. Dishwasher run through fill cycle and drain cycle to get all water out.
Sewage : force as much water out of the traps with plunger. Add antifreeze to each trap. REmember sinks, bathtub, toilets, washtubs, floor drains. Sump Pumps should be left operational.
Forced Hot Water : Have a plumber show you how to remove water. Can you put enough antifreeze in these things to 100% assure it will not freeze? I doubt that, though it may be possiable.
I am pretty stronly against lowering thermostat below 55. Deep freezes like last winter thoughout the NE states can easily freeze pipes in walls, esp when a thermostat is set in the 40's.

Where are you at in AC? You're not one of those houses on those lots just north of Showboat that are waiting for you big casino pay day are you? I heard that Hard Rock is going to open a casino there. Problem is those folks may have wasted years of waiting for a big payday thanks to those horrid new eminent domain laws where the governmentwill assist in taking your land for any private sector commerical purpose now. What a huge freedom and right to own property we lost as Americans with that law!

http://www.contractormag.com/article...m?columnid=426 Makes a point about pressurizing lines and low points in a line that may collect and cause freeze point.

[agent511]

Wow, that's quite a response!

There is a lot there to digest.

I fear heating system problems if not done 100% correct, as well as frozen pipes somewhre if not done 100% correct, and I do not believe there are many qualified plumbers who have experience in this area to perform the job correctly, yet alone have a reasonable price. I don't believe that many people winterize their house there, I think they just turn down the thermostat to various extents; perhaps due to the impossibility to get a responsible plumber to come out and give an estimate, and then come back and do the job correctly.

The thermostat was at 52 last year. Certainly going to 55 would only raise costs. Going lower does have risks, as you pointed out, with outlying areas of the house freezing up.

Thanks for your help. I don't know if you are a plumber or not, but i can tell you are qualified in your response. NO, the house is not in an area zoned for casino's. It is a regular residential area.

[TheRic]

After reading some of these responses, you might want to consider a combination. Someone on here might be able to say what's the pros and cons are:

Drain the water out, especially in the outside walls, and rooms that don't get any heat. Don't worry too much about water inside. Then turn the heater down, maybe 40 or so. The heat from inside should keep any water inside from freezing and bursting. But yet still able to keep the cost down.

Just a thought.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Wow, that's quite a response!

There is a lot there to digest.

I fear heating system problems if not done 100% correct, as well as frozen pipes somewhre if not done 100% correct, and I do not believe there are many qualified plumbers who have experience in this area to perform the job correctly, yet alone have a reasonable price. I don't believe that many people winterize their house there, I think they just turn down the thermostat to various extents; perhaps due to the impossibility to get a responsible plumber to come out and give an estimate, and then come back and do the job correctly.

The thermostat was at 52 last year. Certainly going to 55 would only raise costs. Going lower does have risks, as you pointed out, with outlying areas of the house freezing up.

Thanks for your help. I don't know if you are a plumber or not, but i can tell you are qualified in your response. NO, the house is not in an area zoned for casino's. It is a regular residential area.

Nope, not a plumber but I did time as a high value home claims file examiner who had the joy of going to court on many of the denials based upon freezing exclusion.

The thing that hit me is that you advise there is no insulation in the walls. With forced hot water system that is not a good thing, so I am concerned about the likelyhood of freezing, particularly on outer walls.

Call a couple oil companies and/or plumbers and get a couple quotes from each group. I imagine small mom and pop oil companies may have the best price on winterizing your furnace system and you can handle the other systems ie potable water, sewer, drains, dishwasher, etc.