Learning to cut Tenons

[naubur]

As I progress in my skills, I have decided to learn Mortise and Tenon joinery. For some reason I have started doing them by hand and am finding I need to improve my hand sawing technique dramatically to get really good joints.

My question - am I wasting my time? Should I just put on the Dado blade and make the tenons on the TS?


j

[Tom Miller]

As I progress in my skills, I have decided to learn Mortise and Tenon joinery. For some reason I have started doing them by hand and am finding I need to improve my hand sawing technique dramatically to get really good joints.

My question - am I wasting my time? Should I just put on the Dado blade and make the tenons on the TS?


j

Are you using a shoulder plane? I can't imagine tenons being "good to go" directly after the sawing....

If you're getting anywhere near close, perhaps you're an awesome sawyer.

Regards,
Tom

[Jeffrey Schronce]

IMHO there is no correct answer to this question. There are hand tool fanatics that would never consider anything but a good handsaw and chisel for M&T. Certainly the learning curve and likely work time would be lower with power tools involved. Dado and/or tenon jig move things right along, as does a dedicated mortising machine. I find that the key to tight M&T is being as accurate as possible with measurements. That, for me, was the key.

Edit : Add shoulder plane, as Tom notes, to list of needs for hand tool fanatics.

[crokett]

Whatever method you pick, stay with it. There are several ways to cut mortises and tenons. My mistake early on was thinking that since one method didn't work well another would produce better results. I didn't think about the fact that each has its own learning curve.

[ChrisD]

IMHO, anything you learn a useful skill from is NOT a waste of time. And sawing tenons by hand is a useful skill especially when you only have a couple of tenons to cut. It would take much less time than setting up the tablesaw or a router to do the job.

I totally understand the frustration of not getting perfect cuts in the beginning. That's what the scrap bin is for: not so much a place to add to as to take stuff from to practice on (of course, this is a symbiotic relationship ). I recently saw the "5-minute dovetail" video on the Fine Woodworking site, where Gary Rogowski highlights the importance of warming up before starting a task, which I think is a good habit to develop.

And as Tom pointed out, having the right tools for the job is key. A shoulder plane is essential in this task, but if you do not have one already you can make do by paring with a narrow chisel (for the shoulders) and a wide one (for the cheeks). Another nice skill to have!

Also, the saw should be a natural extension of your hand. If you're not comfortable with the one you have now, invest in a good one.

[radhak]

I need a handful of tenons myself, and am going to use my shop-built router table sometime this week, with high hopes on the result.

Sometime back I had used the table saw, and was reasonably satisfied, seeing that i did not have a dado set, and i took a lot of time sneaking up on the final tenon.

My take on using powertools (against handtools) is, at least i get to re-attempt the joint quicker...

[DeanKC]

Hey Naubur,

As intimated here several times, it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

If you're trying to build skills, use them handtools and go for it!

If, however, you're really interested in getting a project done with a shallower learning curve, use the best blades on your table saw or the sharpest and most precise bits on your router, and have at it!

If you're going to PAINT your joints, you may not have to be quite so precise as you might if you plan to STAIN and/or VARNISH your wood.

Precision and repeatability are the main reason for the use of machines. Yes, there is a real statement to be made for creating hundreds of handcrafted, complex joints. If you have the time, the drive, and the $$ for the extra material that I would need after screwing several of 'em up in the process, go for it all.

Let us know what you decide and why!

[naubur]

As far as a rabbet plane is concerned - price is a large factor. How would one of these be:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...61&cat=1,41182

As for what I decide - I think I will give my hand technique a little more time and practice and go from there. I hope that if I can make a good one by hand the basics involved in M&Ts will transfer somewhat to power tools.

That and with 3 young kids, it is hard for me to find time to run the power tools, at least with hand tools the kids can be with me, or I can sneak downstairs when they are asleep.


j

[Tom Miller]

As far as a rabbet plane is concerned - price is a large factor. How would one of these be:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...61&cat=1,41182

I'd almost think you could do just as well paring the shoulders with a well-sharpened chisel. I don't think this type of chisel plane has enough front end to register well. I got the Veritas bullnose plane, and have this same issue. I really wish I'd gotten the medium shoulder plane instead, especially since at the time it was only $10 more.

I hope that if I can make a good one by hand the basics involved in M&Ts will transfer somewhat to power tools.

In particular, the tuning techniques you pick up will transfer directly, as there will always be a time when things don't work out quite right.

Regards,
Tom

[SARGE..g-47]

Evening Naubur...

I cut mortises first on a bench mortiser. I then cut tenons on a BS about 1 mm proud to mate that mortice. It gets trimmed down with rasp, file and a shoulder plane.

From 1972 till 2001, I cut em by hand as you are doing. I cut mortises first and then cut the tenon about 1 mm proud. Then I trimmed them down with a rasp, file and shoulder plane.

Bottom line.. you are not going to get a perfect tenon however you cut it as I personally don't believe it exist. I have seen Tage Frid cut MT's, I've seen Frank Klaus cut MT's.. they don't cut em prefect either. Cut it proud and then you have lee-way to match the mortice in increments till you get a perfect fit. IMO, it just makes sense.

Regards...

[scorrpio]

A sidenote to Sarge - I kinda find it peculiar, starting a post with "Good <insert time of day>, Soandso, on an Internet forum. I mean, it being an asyncronous medium, one never knows at what time of day the person you address might be reading your post. In particular, something you post around 11pm will be most likely read in the morning. And even when the post will be read immediately... with posters from all over the world (we got people from Australia, Japan, UK and Poland, to name a few), the time of day where the reader is might be quite different. Any case, don't take it as something negative - just stating I find it peculiar.

Anyways, on handcutting - the tool quality is extremely important. A saw with an uneven set will wander all over the cut line. You either want a saw that will cut straight out of the box, or spend a lot of time tuning one that doesn't. Some people might like to tune saws - I personally don't. Again, this is also personal preference, but I favor the Japanese dozuki pullsaw. If you are using a western style saw and find it hard to control, maybe a dozuki is more your thing.

That said, once you construct a few good jigs, setting up a powertool really does not take that much longer. Not sure if this speaks well of my TS skills or poorly of my handtool skills, but I can set up, and cut a perfectly fitting tenon that might need at most a little touch-up with a sanding block, on the TS, faster than it'd take me to mark the piece, saw it, and trim to fit. (No need to mark the tenon when using a TS - you set up the tool to make the right cut)

Whichever way you go, if you get frustrated - stop and take a break. Precise handtool work requires a state of absolute calm. With all the powertools around, people sometimes forget that a sharp chisel in a frustrated woodworker's hand can do some serious damage.

[naubur]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Last night I spent 2 hours practicing cutting tenons and it has already started to pay off, as they are starting to look better and my cutting technique has improved. I need more practice on the chisel too.

In reflection, I think I was mostly being impatient. This is a skill to learn, and I hoped to bypass the 'learning the skill' step somehow. From your advice I see that there is not some magic bullet that I wasn't aware of. I once heard something like 'A carpenter shouldn't blame his tools', which I think stands well here.


j

[Tom Miller]

I once heard something like 'A carpenter shouldn't blame his tools'....

That's assuming he's at least brought appropriate tools to the job....

Regards,
Tom

[SARGE..g-47]

Good.. whatever the time of day it happens to be wherever you are! :>)

Scorrpio:

Thanks for the heads up on addressing a world audience as not to confuse them or annoy them with in-significant details. I mustl admit that I never gave it even the slightest thought. Where I hail from it is just polite to greet someone with Good morning.. afternoon or evening before you engage in further conversation. After 59 years it has obviously become a very additive habit in my case and probably will be very difficult for me to break.

Let me be the first to admit that not only am I somewhat computer challenged, but it's also obvious that I lack the skills to address an international audience that a more formal education would have probably provided me. I did attend Georgia Tech for one quarter on a co-op (work a quarter-attend a quarter) in an attempt to get one, but was drafted into the military after the 1st quarter's attendance and sent to Viet Nam. Things just didn't work out after my return and here I am in my raw form. :>)

So... all things considered, I will try to make a more concious effort in the future when attempting to pass along the limited WW skills I have attained over the years to others.

Have a good day.. whatever day it is wherever you happen to be.. :>)

[JimD]

I cannot claim to have mastered mortise and tenons but I have gotten good enough that they do not frustrate me any more. I have cut mortises with a drill press and chisels, a plunge router, and I now have a dedicated mortiser. Chiseling did not work for me. It was too slow. A plunge router works but takes a fair amount of setup. To do it well requires, IMHO, carbide spiral cutting bits which aren't cheap. I like my dedicated mortiser. The plunge router can cut nicer looking mortises but not as quickly or as quietly. The price difference may not be as big as you think by the time you get a set of spiral cutting bits for the router (which admittedly are nice to have for other things).

For cutting tenons, I have used a horizontal router table, a dado blade on both the BT3100 and a radial arm saw, and a regular saw blade on the BT3100 using a Jim Frye type jig on the rip fence. I move the rip fence in small controlled increments using the micropositioner. I nibble the waste away and make the cheek cuts in the process. If I am careful and clamp the wood in place before each cut, I normally get a nice tight fitting shoulder that does not require trimming.

My bottom line is dedicated mortiser for the mortise and the BT3100 for the tenons. Nice tight fitting mortise and tenon as long as you are careful. Not the only way to do it but the best way I have found.

Jim