Too much cleaning?

[Ed62]

Is it possible that there is such a thing as too much cleaning of a saw blade or router bit? Or maybe a better way of saying it, Is there a blade cleaning product that has absolutely no ill effects on carbide? I'm of the thought that for most products people use for cleaning, it will not be totally compatible with the blade. Thoughts? Recommendations? Is it really compatible? I remember someone saying that "Simple Green" might not be the best.

Ed

[MilDoc]

I use Simple Green but follow the manufacturers advice to avoid any harm to carbide tipped blades. Dilute 1:10 with water, spray it on, scrub, and rinse off. Do not soak.

Or, if you can find it. Extreme Simple Green which is non-corrosive and non-embrittling. Dilute 1:3 with water, and spray, scrub, rinse, or soak for up to 30 minutes. No ill effect on carbide tipped blades.

Freud blade rep does not recommend things like oven cleaner. And I stay away from kerosene due to toxicity and the fact that it burns!

[Slik Geek]

Is there a blade cleaning product that has absolutely no ill effects on carbide? I'm of the thought that for most products people use for cleaning, it will not be totally compatible with the blade.

Some of the cleaners that folks rave about for cleaning carbide bits and blades are very effective. But as you observe, there are two major criteria: effectiveness and compatibility. Just because it cleans like crazy doesn't mean that you should use it.
I did some research into compatibility awhile back... I'll try and find it.

[cabinetman]

I've always used just plain old solvents like MS, lacquer thinner, or VM&P Naptha (Varnish Makers and Painters). I don't soak the bit, just a damp rag to clean it. Haven't noticed failures with bits that appear to have been compromised by any solvents. On bits with bearings that are used on formica laminations that are glued with contact cement, and get a buildup of glue, they are cleaned the same way, and oiled with a light air tool oil. Product data sometimes reads "sealed bearing", which I have my doubts about.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[Ed62]

Thanks for the replies. Like Paul, I've been using Simple Green, diluted. But I thought someone posted, not long ago, that Simple Green wasn't really compatible with carbide. I thought of trying MS, but it gives SWMBO a headache when I use it. I'd like to see that research on compatibility if it happens to show up. Thanks.

Ed

[Slik Geek]

I'd like to see that research on compatibility if it happens to show up. Thanks.

Alas, now that I'm home, I remember that I had a hard drive crash during a time when I had missed doing a backup for a couple months. I lost my original research. Here's what I managed to reconstruct:

"Carbides consist of finely divided carbide grains held together in a skeletal structure by binder materials such as cobalt, chromiumcobalt, nickel, or nickel-molybdenum. When carbide corrosion occurs, it is usually only the binder material which corrodes. Therefore, it is necessary to consider the corrosive compatibility of the binder and the corrosive media. When carbides corrode, the binder is generally dissolved from the surface of the material leaving the weak skeletal surface structure of the carbide grains. The grains, having little support, quickly break away. The result is a pitted surface which becomes dull in appearance when the surface is severely corroded." Kennametal Specialty Carbide Products catalog.

The challenge is to know what binders are used, determine their solvent compatibility, and then the really hard part: how much attack is really acceptable. If the exposure to the chemical is brief, the effect could be negligible and we are making a big deal out of virtually nothing.

Kennametal's tungsten carbide compatibility lists the following items that have "negligible attack" for all of their grades of tungsten carbide: acetone, alcohol, benzene (liquid), carbon tetrachloride, esters, ethylene glycol, freon, gasoline, kerosene, methanol, distilled water.

Interestingly, chlorinated tap water impact is rated as a "light attack". (That's because chlorine gas is very incompatible with tungsten carbide, and the trace amount of chlorine in fresh tap water is enough to become noticeable).

I should note that this Kennametal compatibility information is in the context of valves and seals, where the materials are likely in continuous contact. Thus, "light attack" is probably "negligible" in our brief contact situation.

Unfortunately, I haven't found compatibility information on mineral spirits, lacquer thinner, or naptha.

Does anybody out there have compatibility information of these solvents with cobalt, a common tungsten carbide binder?

[Tom Slick]

We use simple green at work on our forrest ww2 blades. they get a spray about once a week, soaks for 2-3 mins then wipe it off. we have seen no difference in blade life. no extra chipping, cracking, dulling etc. those blades cut 100's of thousands of linear feet in ash, poplar, mohagany, etc before changing.
if you are really concerned about it Wurth makes an excellent pitch remover specifically for that purpose.
unlike cabinetman I have found that laquer thinner, acetone, MEK, mineral spirits and any other common solvents doesn't even smear the pitch build up.

[cabinetman]

I have found that laquer thinner, acetone, MEK, mineral spirits and any other common solvents doesn't even smear the pitch build up.

Cleaning badly gummed up bits isn't easy. Using common solvents doesn't just dissolve away the resin and pitch. It takes some elbow grease. I've tried "Blade and Bit" cleaner (pictured below) and still takes effort to thoroughly work. It doesn't work as easy as it sounds on the directions. As on router bits, shaper cutters, and planer/jointer knives, the duller they get, the faster they get gummed up. That is an indicator to how they are working, besides the results you get.

On some instances, hard scraping with a piece of wood, or wood and rag is necessary. I try to clean them as they are used to keep the buildup to a minimum, since changing planer/jointer knives is such a PITA, whatever can be done is a help.

This is one of those "whatever works for you" shop jobs that become a necessary evil. I don't think Billy Mays has anything yet.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[LarryG]

The possible dangers of Simple Green are endlessly debated on bicycle forums. There does seem to be a general concensus that it will haze aluminum if the parts are left to soak in it. A number of people have reported hairline cracks in chains, or even chain breakage, after soaking them in SG, but AFAIK no one has ever proved there's a connection.

Via these discussions I learned about the orange ZEP cleaner sold by Home Depot, which many users claim is a safer product than Simple Green. It does work superbly as a degreaser, but I've not yet tried it on blades or bits.

[SARGE..g-47]

I use Simple Green but.... never let the pitch build to a point that a 1-2 minute soak and a medium stiff nylon brush won't take it off easily. No ill effects on carbide break-down I can detect. Then again, I rip enough stock to dull a blade in 5-6 months on average and change it so that wouldn't qualify "my no ill effects" over a long period.

I personally think the key to not having to use anything harsh or even questionably harsh to clean pitch is to clean the blade more often before it cures and requires an over-night soaking.

The orange stuff Larry mentioned probably has a citrus base (oil from orange peels that is sold to manufacturers for cleaning supplies). Generally citrus base is a good mild cleaner. I have not tried it on blades though. But.. using it on blades with the method of not waiting too long would probably work I bet!

Regards...

[crokett]

I also use Simple Green undiluted. Have since I got my saw and have seen no problems with it except it takes the letters off over time. But I also don't let blades soak for very long before I scrub, rinse and dry.

[Duff]

Bringing up an almost dead thread about cleaning blades

Alright, raising old threads...

Using simple green and a brass brush alright? Saw Sarge said nylon, but I HAD pitch built up so bad, only sandblasting would have taken care of it. . . Soaked in WD40 for about 6 hours and all that did was deteriorate the red paint on my Freud 80T...I've finally finished cleaning it (brass brush alone - and about 45 minutes while watching Norm (recorded)) and don't wanna let it get that bad again. Thanks (BTW, i'm cheap!)

[SARGE..g-47]

Alright, raising old threads...

Using simple green and a brass brush alright? Saw Sarge said nylon, but I HAD pitch built up so bad, only sandblasting would have taken care of it. . . Soaked in WD40 for about 6 hours and all that did was deteriorate the red paint on my Freud 80T...I've finally finished cleaning it (brass brush alone - and about 45 minutes while watching Norm (recorded)) and don't wanna let it get that bad again. Thanks (BTW, i'm cheap!)

.... Hmmmm.... hmmmm... hmmmm.... if I had known it was that bad Duff, I may still have some C-4 plastic explosives laying around somewhere. I could have shipped them to save some time.

[Ed62]

Alright, raising old threads...

Using simple green and a brass brush alright?

Since I started this thread, I saw where the makers of Simple Green do not recommend using it for soaking carbide blades. They say it is not compatible, but the new version of SG, Extreme Simple Green (?) has no ill effects. Following is a response from the makers on the use of Simple Green:
"Simple Green has been used to clean carbide blades for many, many years - because it does a good job of breaking down wood resins and sap.

However, the Kennametal Cobalt Leach Test shows that restriction should be placed on using Simple Green to clean carbide tooling. Blades should never be soaked in Simple Green, and we have never recommended that this be done.

Utilization of Simple Green at a 1:10 dilution ratio with water, sprayed on, scrubbed, and rinsed off, should not cause any damage or deterioration to carbide blades. With proper dilution and rinsing, there is not a cumulative effect of cleaning with Simple Green. Problems arise with too strong a solution being left on the carbide blade or tool for too long. Soaking should always be avoided.

In the past year (2005) Sunshine Makers, Inc. has developed and marketed a product called Extreme Simple Green. This product is a non-corrosive, non-embrittling product that has passed a variety of metals corrosion and embrittlement tests. Several of these tests are attached to this email.

I would recommend switching away from original Simple Green and choosing, instead, Extreme Simple Green. Blades can be soaked in this product without ill effect. The best dilution ratio for doing this is 1-part-Extreme to 3-parts-water. This same ratio can be used for spraying, scrubbing, and rinsing blades - or higher dilutions of as much as 1:9 can be used for this kind of application.
Extreme Simple Green is currently readily available online at Aircraft Spruce and Grainger.

I hope that this information is helpful to you. Thanks again for contacting us and for choosing Simple Green products.
"

Ed

[Tom Slick]

As noted above;
It is important to note that spraying and wiping is different then soaking. I think of soaking as immersion for a period of time. spraying and wiping, even if you let it sit for a couple of minutes is not the same. The carbide issue is directly linked to soaking.

If you have really caked on buildup you can remove it with ZEP purple degreaser, it removes it instantly. the downside is that it also contains the chemical in question, so you certanly don't want to soak.