Water based shellac?

[lcm1947]

I plan on finishing a coffee table with a wipe on shellac then a water based poly that one of the magazines claims to be an outstanding water based poly. My question is what kind of shellac. Is there such a thing as a water based shellac and if not could I use the oil based shellac under a water based poly? Oh also is there such thing as a wipe on shellac or just the brush on kind but some people just wipe it on anyway? Thanks.

[pcombs]

A few things to consider - you cannot apply a water based finish on regular shellac. It has to be a dewaxed seal coat. Second you probably do not need to use shellac unless you are trying to achieve stain control - avoid bloching.

If you apply water based finish onto waxed shellac, you may have adherence problems.

If you are looking to warm the wood, use wiping varnish instead (oil based) and then once dried, apply the water base on top of this.

If you want to use only shellac as a finish, use the waxed kind. You may have to apply multiple coats to acieve an acceptable protection level.

By the way, shellac is only thinned with alcohol and as you may already know, water and alcohol do not mix. There is nothing like water-based shellac!!

[lcm1947]

Thanks for the reply pcombs. So I can apply a poly over a de-waxed shellac? Sorry just want to make sure I am understanding what you are telling me. I got everything else thank you and yes I do want to put a shellac down first because one of the other guys showed a picture of a cabinet he did ( I think it was Ken ) and it was simply beautiful and that's what he did so I want to copy it. Now I'm sure he used a oil based poly but I'm hoping the water based will be ok. I'm just trying to avoid oil-based everything. Hate the mess and clean up process. Yeah, pretty much lazy.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

1) Yes there is such a thing as waterborne shellac. Target (not the retail store) Coatings makes a water based shellac. I have never used that specific product, but Target Coating finishes are pretty much mail order only in my experience.

2) What shellac did he use that contributed to the effect you are seeking? Did he use blonde, garnet, amber? Did you clarify that point with the person advising you of the technique that was used on his project? Blonde shellac at a 1lb cut is going to impart very little color to the over all finish and can likely be skipped. If it is garnet or amber then you are going to need to find a dewaxed source or dewax it yourself.

3) Which water based poly are you using? Is it clear or does it have a traditional amber oil based finish look? If you are seeking to have a finish that looks like another persons the you may want to know what type of poly they used - traditional or waterborne.

4) What type of wood is this project? What is the desired finish? You may be able to skip the shellac process all together.

[Kristofor]

By the way, shellac is only thinned with alcohol and as you may already know, water and alcohol do not mix. There is nothing like water-based shellac!!

Not that it relates much to the question, but water and short chain alcohols (ethanol, methanol, propanol) do mix just fine...

Kristofor.

[pcombs]

The main big box stores sell 2 types of shellac, the regular and seal coat, mainly Zinsser. If it does no say wax-free, then it has wax.

As Jeff pointed out, you can use an amber tinted or tint your water base amber, to warm the wood. Clear water base leaves wood with a cold gray look. This is one of the main disadvantage with water based finishes.

If you want to use only water based finish, your best bet is to look for amber tinted finish - General Finishes or other high end finishes may have this, haven't used them much myself.

The other option is to mix oil (after drying) with water based finish (Top coat) - hybrid approach.

[pierhogunn]

just a quick question, the bullseye shellac based primer is more than likely a dewaxed product, since it is a primer, and is inteded to be a base for most retail finishes....

Or have I just shot myself in the foot in a big way?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

just a quick question, the bullseye shellac based primer is more than likely a dewaxed product, since it is a primer, and is inteded to be a base for most retail finishes....

Or have I just shot myself in the foot in a big way?

Exactly which Zinsser product do you have?

Bulls Eye Shellac Sealer and Finish (Wax)

Bulls Eye SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer (Dewaxed)

Or did you put on a true "primer" sold by Zinsser? (Problem)

[gsmittle]

Not that it relates much to the question, but water and short chain alcohols (ethanol, methanol, propanol) do mix just fine...

Kristofor.

Personally, I prefer my short chain alcohols mixed with Coke.....

Finishes me just fine

g.

[Kristofor]

I'm with you on that, but just using ethanol. The blindness and death from the others are kind of a downer.

Kristofor.

[lcm1947]

Thanks all for the replies. To answer some of your questions Jeff. The magazine which is Fine WoodWorking dated Dec 2006 #187. Article named "Waterborne finishes come of age". They didn't name it best overall or best value but looking at the results it has very respectable ratings. They big reason though is I can get it at lowes. The little time I have to do woodworking I try not to spend it all looking around or having to order stuff online. When I want something I like being able to go and get it - then. Anyway, it's Olympic Premium interior water based clear satin polyurethane. It ran me $16.00 a quart. If this doesn't look good to me I'll try Hydrocoate Resisthane Plus from Rockler at $9.00. It was rated best valve. Best overall was General Finishing High Performance but at $26.00. I can't answer most of your questions because the poster didn't mention them but he did state it was de-waxed. Now seeing your questions I see that there's more to this then just trying any shellac or any shellac working to produce the same results as the poster got. I'll have to email him to see more details. The wood I'll use is white pine for a coffee table. I know I could skip the shellac but his piece looked so nice thought I'd try it. I plan on doing samples so will keep experimenting until I am pleased with the results.

Did I miss the reply about if you can use a water based poly over a oiled based de-waxed shellac?

pcombs, if clear poly will gray then I for sure want to use something to change it to a more suitable color. What do you think of an amber shellac on white pine? I really am not that picky on what tint the wood takes so could use whatever but gray just doesn't sound appealing to me.

I hope this answered all the questions. This finishing business is not so cut and dry is it?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

No problem with your source or your product. I understand where you are coming from!

Yes, you can use your product over dewaxed shellac. It sounds like you want to use shellac. Shellac is cool so I don't blame ya! LOL! Just get a little of the Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer which is pre-cut and is wax free. This will impart a little color to you project.

Is you project stained at all or just natural pine?

When pcombs mentioned the grey thing he did not mean the finish will turn a grey color over time, rather he meant that waterbased poly tends to be perfectly clear imparting no color to the wood. Pine, Maple, Etc may seem a bit "grey" or "cold" and un-natural without some type of tinting finish. However this only applies if you are not using stain on the project. If you have stained the project most of this conversation is not that relevant, just use your waterbased finish and be done with it.

[lcm1947]

Thanks Jeff and no I haven't done anything yet. No I am not planning on any stain. I will try some of your Bull's Eye Sealcoat as you suggested. Looks like I might be able to buy it in town so that's a big plus oh and thanks for clearing the gray thing up.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Thanks Jeff and no I haven't done anything yet. No I am not planning on any stain. I will try some of your Bull's Eye Sealcoat as you suggested. Looks like I might be able to buy it in town so that's a big plus oh and thanks for clearing the gray thing up.

Zinsser Bulls Eye Sealcoat is found at Lowes, HD, Ace Hardware, etc plus a lot of paint stores so it should be easy to find.

Natural pine looks cool. A coat or two of the Zinsser Sealcoat will add a nice tone to the wood. It will be a slightly yellow color. That product does not need to be thinned any further, you can use it straight out of the can. It dries very quickly and you can get a couple coats on in an evening. Let it dry over night and you are good to go with the Olympic Waterbased Poly. Note you can apply shellac in practially any temp, but the poly needs to be in a decently warm area for good application and drying. Follow the recommendations on the can. Also, never use foam brushes with shellac as it desolves the pads. If it is a relatively small project I would create a ball of lint free fabric (worn out tshirt works well) and enclose it in a layer of the same material. This creates a nice pad that you can use to apply the thin shellac with no runs. If you do get runs, then an additional coat of sealer will usually allow you to flatten the run since there is so much solvent in the sealer.

[lcm1947]

Thanks Jeff. I greatly appreciate your advice and continued help. I'm really looking forward to trying my hand at finishing using something other then paint. It's pretty cold here in Austin so perfect timing for using shellac then but not so good for the poly. Course as slow as I am it may very well be summer before I get around to applying the poly and I'm not kidding. Again, thanks all for the replies and help.