How to get beautiful finishes like these?

[JonW]

Some photos are shown below from Paul Reed Smith guitars. Beautiful work, I’d say. I’m wondering how one would go about getting looks like these? I’m making some speakers and will be veneering them. Maybe something like the guitar finishes would be nice. Or maybe too gawdy for speakers.

What types of wood are they (quilted maples, maybe)? What type of stains get these nice blues and red? How to finish them off? Someone recommended spraying on some CrystaLac for the final finish. Thanks!

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Blue looks like quilted maple. Red looks like tiger maple.
Analine dye rather than stain would be the way to accomplish these deep rich colors while highlighting the wood characteristics. Stains would tend to hinder the characteristics of the wood.
Finish wise, you could use any clear finish capable of building depth. Clear gloss poly would be fine. These are indoor home speakers that will not be exposed to the harsh realities that a guitar would ie, sweat, etc. The finish does not need to be as durable. If you have the capacity to spray lacquer then go for it. Otherwise poly would probably be your best bet.

[Tree Farmer]

These are rather typical samples of PRS guitars: quilited maple on mahogany and flamed maple (tiger maple to some) on mahogany. Most PRS instruments have spectacular finishes, but I've seen one or two real dogs in my lifetime in which the figure was either rather dull or the pigment was just too dark. I agree that you'll find that the finish is dereved from a dye rather than a run-of-the-mill stain. I highly recommend visting www.stewmac.com for more information.

[Wood_workur]

Blue looks like quilted maple. Red looks like tiger maple.
Analine dye rather than stain would be the way to accomplish these deep rich colors while highlighting the wood characteristics. Stains would tend to hinder the characteristics of the wood.
Finish wise, you could use any clear finish capable of building depth. Clear gloss poly would be fine. These are indoor home speakers that will not be exposed to the harsh realities that a guitar would ie, sweat, etc. The finish does not need to be as durable. If you have the capacity to spray lacquer then go for it. Otherwise poly would probably be your best bet.

EXACTLY, he's right on the money.

[Tundra_Man]

Quilted/curly maple, a translcent color and nitrocellulose lacquer buffed to a mirror shine. The full recipie for PRS's finishes can be found in this book: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishin...p-By-Step.html

And in reference to Jeff's post, actually poly is more durable than lacquer. Poly (at least the kind we can get a hold of) cures too soft to allow it to be buffed to the same shine level as lacquer, so that's why instrument makers don't use it. It is much more scratch resistant, however.

[JonW]

Thanks folks! Isn’t that blue quilted maple just stunning? Wow.

OK, dyes rather than stain. Stewmac for supplies. And I like the idea of getting a book to read about such things. I don’t really have any desire to make my own guitar at this point (I can barely play- it would give you a headache) but it would be nice to learn from what’s out there. And maybe use similar techniques for furniture or speakers.

When you folks say “poly” you mean polyurethane, correct? And might I want to just brush on some polyurethane? Any specific product that is good? Or maybe invest in an HVLP sprayer and use something like CrystaLac?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Yes, polyurethane. I would cut poly 50/50 with Naptha, maybe throw in a dash of Boiled Linseed Oil and wipe it on with old t-shirt. Much easier to accomplish your proper build.
HVLP with CrystaLac is certainly viable. You will need to thin it a good bit.
It sounds like you are in the begining stages of this so I would stick with wipe on poly or Deft Lac.
Tundra advises Poly is more scratch resistant (suprising to me) than Lac. Solvent, Alchol, water, resistence is similar between the two. Seems poly would be the easier, better way to go.
Side note I did see Deft semi gloss on clearance at Lowes for $17 gal.

[JonW]

Jeffrey-
Thanks for the tips. Yeah, I'm quite new to this. For my shelves, I used 2 coats of Zar (I think that's what it is) Clear Gloss polyurethane. I put it on with a brush. It's pretty good. But the 2 things that could be improved, for my next project, are that it didn't make a nice thick, hard, really smooth coat. And that it has a little color to it, so it's not totally clear. The wood become more yellow. So I'm looking for something better. Would you recommend using Deft semi gloss polyurethane? Or maybe more of a clear gloss? And apply as you stated (cut with naptha, wipe on)? Maybe this stuff:
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/clear.htm

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Jeffrey-
Thanks for the tips. Yeah, I'm quite new to this. For my shelves, I used 2 coats of Zar (I think that's what it is) Clear Gloss polyurethane. I put it on with a brush. It's pretty good. But the 2 things that could be improved, for my next project, are that it didn't make a nice thick, hard, really smooth coat. And that it has a little color to it, so it's not totally clear. The wood become more yellow. So I'm looking for something better. Would you recommend using Deft semi gloss polyurethane? Or maybe more of a clear gloss? And apply as you stated (cut with naptha, wipe on)? Maybe this stuff:
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/clear.htm

Zar make good products, there oil based stains are nice in that though they are not marketed as a gel stain, they very much apply like a gel stain. It really shouldn't be imparting a yellow tint to the wood though. Are you sure it is not bringing out the color of the wood?
What you are looking for is to build the finish. Other than the special pour on products for bar tops, one coat will not accomplish that. You need to build the depth of the finish with many thinner coats. I don't build finishs to that level often, but using clear/gloss poly or lacquer as a build would be the way to go here. If you are seeking guitar type depth I would avoid semi-gloss. If you are going to use semi-gloss it must be your final coat. Don't build with semi-gloss as the flattening agents will obstruct the view of the wood.
If I were finishing speakers, lets say a maple laminate over MDF, I would use a water based dye to get the color, then apply lacquer based sanding sealer, sand 320 grit, then begin building layers of poly, working up in grits between coats. Lacquer finish would involve less sanding but I find poly more forgiving. If you are looking for the piano glass finish, then you will get into the buffing. You'll need to wait a week to let the final finish cure. Wet sand to 600 grit. Use 0000 steel wool and rub long strokes until a even dull surface appears. You can leave it flat or you can rub to gloss. If you are going to go gloss then wet sand to 1200 grit, skip the steel wool. Put a dash of 4F pumice on the surfact and rubbing oil over the pumice. Use clean, dry cottom cloth and polish every inch. Let the mess haze over and then remove with a wet rag. Switch to rottenstone and follow the same steps until it is as glossy as you want. Rubbing to gloss is hard work, but it is very satisfying. There are commercial products that are paste compounds to use instead of pumice and rottenstone. You will sand to 800 and use medium cut compound at first. Then step to final, fine compound to get to high gloss. You CAN power buff and it is a great reason to buy another tool! As Tundra mentioned lacquer will be harder and thus easier to buff, though you can carefully do it with poly.
Good luck.

[JonW]

Hi Jeffrey-

Thanks for the detailed instructions.

I was using Zar clear gloss polyurethane. If you look into the can, it has a bit of a red-ish tint to it. It’s not 100% clear. So I’m not surprised it yellowed the wood somewhat. If you look a the photos of my shelves here:
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=21256
You can see that there is a bit of a yellow tint to the wood. The wood is Russian baltic birch. It’s quite light- almost white- without any poly added. For the shelves, I actually prefer this yellowed color to what the wood looks like bare. But I’m just thinking ahead to the speaker project. The yellowing might not be so great.

Also, I’m not too concerned with building the finish up to be too thick. Although that certainly is nice. Just a very smooth, clear gloss finish would be nice.

If you say poly is more forgiving than lacquer, it might be a good way for me and my lack of skills to go.

Although I want to have some nice, workable speakers, it’s all a learning exercise. So maybe I’ll pick myself up a can of the Deft stuff and try a few things.

Actually, I’m seeing a few different Deft products. Which would you recommend?
There is the clear wood finish. Looks to be a nitrocellulose:
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/clear.htm
There is an interior polyurethane:
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/polyurethane.htm
And they have n interior/exterior “platinum” polyurethane:
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/defthane.htm

[Jeffrey Schronce]

My vote :
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/clear.htm

Nitrocellulose Lacquer

I may pick up some of that Zar Clear Gloss Poly next time just to see what is going on there. I mean all poly has some color to it. In fact all finishes (except water based) seem to have some tint. I would think you would need to have a lot of coats to be able to see a good brand name poly.

[JimD]

The nitrocellulose is lacquer. It dries faster than poly. Poly gets hard enough to buff but it takes about a month. It is OK to handle but is not full hardness for much longer (maybe it's a week but it's not a day or two). That is why they tell you to be careful on recently finished hardwood floors (like don't walk in shoes on it for a week or two).

The only time I have sanded and then polished back out to a gloss was when I painted my motorcycles many years ago. It is a lot of work. I was pleasantly surprised at how smooth a finish I got with wipe on oil based poly on my last woodworking project. It takes a lot of coats (6 or 7 in my experience) but the resulting finish seems smoother than my attempts at brush on or even spary on finishes. I know spray can be very smooth but that is not where my skill level is.

If you want really clear finish, I would use a lacquer or a water based poly. I don't know how to make a water based wipe-on (you can't just thin with water) but you can get a pretty decent finish with brushing on water based poly. Oil based finishes have a yellow or amber cast that some find attractive.

To enhance the figure in figured wood in general and especially maple, you can wipe on a coat of linseed oil, wait a week, and then finish with lacquer or poly. The linseed oil enhances the figure a lot - although it reduces the shimmer some. Linseed oil is also a good idea on walnut because it makes it darker. Linseed oil also imparts a yellow color so you may not like it on maple, best to try on a piece of scrap first.

Jim

[Jeffrey Schronce]

If you want really clear finish, I would use a lacquer or a water based poly. I don't know how to make a water based wipe-on (you can't just thin with water) but you can get a pretty decent finish with brushing on water based poly. Oil based finishes have a yellow or amber cast that some find attractive.

To enhance the figure in figured wood in general and especially maple, you can wipe on a coat of linseed oil, wait a week, and then finish with lacquer or poly. The linseed oil enhances the figure a lot - although it reduces the shimmer some. Linseed oil is also a good idea on walnut because it makes it darker. Linseed oil also imparts a yellow color so you may not like it on maple, best to try on a piece of scrap first.

Jim

A few huge problems with water based poly :
1) If you use a water based dye there is a high likelyhood of bleed through of the color into the water based finish resulting in a muddied finish.
2) Water based finishes lose transparency in thick layers.
3) Unless you are in a controlled environment, water based products react poorly to weather during application and curing, particularly humidity. Flow out is bad in low temps.
4) Poor protection against heat, solvents, water ,etc.

Water based poly is actually tiny microscopic pieces of already dried, cured poly in a water based medium for application. You CAN add 10-20% distilled water to water based poly in order to lower probability of bubbles in the finish. I just don't think you can thin it enough to wipe on, but hey never tried it. I don't like water based poly as I don't feel it ever gets as hard or as protective as solvent based poly, however some say it can. It has not been the case for me. I used it on 3-4 restoration projects and did not like the outcome. Of course that could have to do with the original coats of the finish having been more traditional such as shellac. All in all I don't like it.

I use a 10-20% mix of Linseed in my wipe on poly mixes and get the grain popping you are speaking of. If time permits I will often apply a light coat of Linseed oil to a dark project or highly figured oak. I am sick in that I like the smell of linseed oil. However, in the application of finish over a quilted maple that has been dyed as opposed to stained, I would skip the Linseed. Also, if you choose to go with water based poly skip any oil base, such as linseed, as the water based poly will not bond.

[JonW]

Hi Jim and Jeffrey,

Thanks for the further perspectives. Now I'm really confused on what to use.

What do you do to polish the finish? Not sure I'll go that far, just curious.

My vote :
http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/clear.htm

Nitrocellulose Lacquer

I may pick up some of that Zar Clear Gloss Poly next time just to see what is going on there. I mean all poly has some color to it. In fact all finishes (except water based) seem to have some tint. I would think you would need to have a lot of coats to be able to see a good brand name poly.

The Zar Clear Gloss Poly seems pretty decent, but it's the only thing I've ever used, so I can't really say too much. I'm new to all this. The first coat goes on and it feels all bumpy after it dries. Then I sand it lightly with 220 grit and wipe it down. The second coat makes a smoother surface that I don't sand. I'm done at that point. The second coat is much smoother. But it's not super smooth. There is a little yellowing/darkening from it. And it's not a nice, thick finish, of course with only 2 coats.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Hi Jim and Jeffrey,

What do you do to polish the finish? Not sure I'll go that far, just curious.

See my message above, #9.