PC 557 Biscuit Jointer or Kreg K3 Super Pocket Hole Jig kit

[venkatbo]

Hi folks,

At the WW show I saw demos for both these...

'am really confused which way to go - For kitchen cabinets (with faceframes or Euro style), which one would yo recommend ?

Both are priced ~$200, with the Kreg system requiring more to be spent on self-tapping screws, whereas the PC biscuit jointer requires more on clamps (could add upto quite a bit more in cost) and in time (to dry)

Thanks,
/venkat

[drumpriest]

I have the PC biscuit joiner and a kreg jig, though not the K3 super kit. You can get a K3 standard for about 70$ or so. I love my PC, but I think the dewalt is probably just as good (well almost, I like the handle setup of the PC better).

Anyway, consider getting both a lesser expensive kreg jig, and perhaps a lesser expensive biscuit joiner, or look for a sale. I got my PC for about 130$ during an amazon sale.

Now....I use the kreg jig for making face frames, and the biscuit joiner for attaching those frames, and for many other things. For kitchen cabinets, you can use the kreg jig for the cabinet construction as well, because you'll be hiding the holes under those counter tops, etc...

Honestly, they both have great features, and you'll find them both invaluable. The advantage of the K3 master or super kit is that you can have a benchtop drilling station, but it only works for certain sized lumber. When you get too big, you still have to take the jig to the workpiece.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I have both the PC557 and K3. As dumpriest notes you will want both eventually (you probably want both now, right!!!?!?). That said, get the K3 or K2000 first. You can do everything with PHJ that you can with biscuits, plus other fun things as noted by dumpriest. You are correct in the clamping department costs, as my clamp collection cost more than any single tool in my shop. Of course I get great use out of the clamps and the PC557. As far as PHJ ongoing costs, they are not much higher than buying biscuits. Get bulk screws on Amazon. 2000 1 1/4 Fine and 2000 1 1 /4 coarse.

K3 or K2000? I would not recommend K3 standard. Either go full K3 or get K2000 or if going real cheap get the Kreg Rocket jig. I have the K3 and I built a dedicated station for it that can be clamped onto my work bench. I built rails going out of each side so I can accomodate very large panels. The K2000 which you can find on clearance cheaper than the K3 includes much more bang for the buck in my opinion. It has the pocket jig for single hole applications in tight spots, it includes the "Rocket Jig" which is the portable 2 hole jig and the mounted 2 hole jig. The K3 has one jig and is more expensive. Yes, it is easy to remove the jig from the base and use by itself, but why the heck is there so much less in the way of jigs in the K3? I don't know, I am probably being trival but I feel cheated with the K3. Does have dust collection and lever is on the front which is cool. The K2000 includes pre-milled plastic rails for larger pieces.

[Joe Lyddon]

Just from what I've heard...
Norm doesn't use biscuits anymore due to problems with them in long run...
Sam Maloof doesn't use / like them; he uses dowels instead...

The Pocket screw system is very popular and time tested to be very good...

I would pick the Kreg system... (have been thinking about it also)...

[venkatbo]

Joe, 'am thinking on similar lines...
I think:
. squaring material on a jointer
. joining using tongue&groove router/TS cuts, glue and pocket-screws, and
. planing on a 12"+ planer
should result in a good/strong long-lasting joint, especially where its not a bother to see pocket holes... plg 'em otherwise...

/venkat

[just4funsies]

Just got Woodcraft's monthly ad in the mail today. They've got a Kreg kit on sale this month. I don't know if it's a good deal, because I'm not looking, but thought it might be worth checking out for those that are.

[drumpriest]

I have the rocket jig, and they are now only 10$ cheaper than the k3 standard. I would buy the k3 standard over the rocket, because it has variable spacings. The rocket is setup for 2" face frame material, anything smaller and you have to move it like doweling jig.

I've never had issues with biscuits, not sure what you mean by "long run" issues. I've built stuff with my biscuit joiner for a few years, and never had any troubles.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I have the rocket jig, and they are now only 10$ cheaper than the k3 standard. I would buy the k3 standard over the rocket, because it has variable spacings. The rocket is setup for 2" face frame material, anything smaller and you have to move it like doweling jig.

I've never had issues with biscuits, not sure what you mean by "long run" issues. I've built stuff with my biscuit joiner for a few years, and never had any troubles.

If there is only $10 difference then go for K3 Standard. My local Lowes has Rocket for $40. K3 Standard is $75. So that was my price basis. I can see where the K3 has an advantage over rocket in smaller face frames.

Like yourself I have had no problem with biscuits, however my utilization period has been much shorter. I am not sure what the problem would be that Norm is quoted as citing. I would never anticipate failure of a PH screw but I would think over 50 years it would be more likely to strip out that the biscuit would be to fail, however I have zero empirical evidence.

[drumpriest]

Ah I didn't know that Lowes had the rocket that cheap. What I did with mine is mark the center and make marks 7/16" out from center on either side, which creates alignment marks so that you can use it one guide hole at a time.

As for biscuit failure vs pocket screw, I would think that pocket screws would fail long before biscuits. My reasoning is that the screw relies on threading in wood, where-as biscuits rely on glue surface, and are basically a form of mortise and loose tenon. I think the issue Norm had was with the biscuits drying out over time and finding dimples in the joint. I've often thought that was due to his biscuits being too wet during use, and the slot being cut too deeply, but I could be wrong.

None of my projects have shown this dimpling problem.

[venkatbo]

.... As for biscuit failure vs pocket screw, I would think that pocket screws would fail long before biscuits. My reasoning is that the screw relies on threading in wood, where-as biscuits rely on glue surface, and are basically a form of mortise and loose tenon. I think the issue Norm had was with the biscuits drying out over time and finding dimples in the joint. I've often thought that was due to his biscuits being too wet during use, and the slot being cut too deeply, but I could be wrong....

While I was at the show, the PC guy did mention this possble downside of biscuits... For that he suggested that planing be done 24 ~ 36hrs after clamping/drying... because most of the swelling happens in the early stages when the biscuits are still wet internally...

The only other downside he metioned was all the time it takes for things to set... before moving on to the next task... waiting 2 days may not be a viable option all the time...

Also, everyone at the show stated that in the final analysis its the glue and not the others (biscuit or screw) that gives the strength... The screws play the basic role of a clamp :-)

Finally, it looks like, there are onlly two situations where biscuits are prefered:
. where the joints should not be visible, and
. screws comes in the way of things like larger diameter holes (such as holes for bench dogs). In some cases, careful placement of the screws can overcome this...

Thanks,
/venkat

[onedash]

I have the PC and my Kreg is the single hole cheapy. I use them both.
For all my glue ups (table tops and raised panels so far) I use biscuits and the rest is usually pocket hole screws. Never used dowells.
I have 6 Jorgensen clamps so far. $ 4X24 and 2x48.

[meika123]

I have the PC biscuit joiner and a kreg jig, though not the K3 super kit. You can get a K3 standard for about 70$ or so. I love my PC, but I think the dewalt is probably just as good (well almost, I like the handle setup of the PC better).

Anyway, consider getting both a lesser expensive kreg jig, and perhaps a lesser expensive biscuit joiner, or look for a sale. I got my PC for about 130$ during an amazon sale.

Now....I use the kreg jig for making face frames, and the biscuit joiner for attaching those frames, and for many other things. For kitchen cabinets, you can use the kreg jig for the cabinet construction as well, because you'll be hiding the holes under those counter tops, etc...

Honestly, they both have great features, and you'll find them both invaluable. The advantage of the K3 master or super kit is that you can have a benchtop drilling station, but it only works for certain sized lumber. When you get too big, you still have to take the jig to the workpiece.

I have the DeWalt biscuit Joiner as well as an inexpensive pocket hole jig. I, like Keith, use my pocket hole jog for building face frames, and the biscuit joiner for attaching same. I really like the DeWalt, and I'm sure there is a strong market for both. The pocket hole joints are extremely strong, though. just my $.02.

Dave in NC

[John Hunter]

I have both and for ease of use you have to love the Kreg system but then Biscuits are great for aligning. I find I use both with preference for the Kreg pocket holes for face frames.

[messmaker]

This is a tough question. I think they both have their place. I think if I had to get only one I would go with a pocket hole jig.It lets you work a lot quicker since you don't have to clamp up. I find that it feels like cheating a bit. I like the help in allignment that you get with biscuits as well as the way it looks. I think they both are plenty strong for most things. (glue up a leg to an apron with a double biscuit joint and try to pull apart. It is not easy) The best answer is probably to have both. A mid priced of each. I have used both on the same project.