Kickback up close !

[lcm1947]

Long story short. I signed up for a Woodcrafters cabinet making class and the first day was today. We finish the two day, 7 1/2 hour a day class tomorrow. Anyway, my work site being the closest to the table saw I was standing in front of the saw towards the left side watching this young man make a cut when in a blink of an eye the material kicked back on him. I've never seen a kickback before but it is an awesome (in a bad way) sight to see and oh so so fast. Cut his hand open and blood went everywhere including all over me and my site. Anyway, the guy will live of course but won't be finishing his cabinet needless to say. This happened several hours ago and I am still keyed up over it. I don't know if I'll ever use the table saw again. Man! Guess I just had to talk to somebody about it. Thanks for listening.

[WEG]

Hi Lee;
Jeez, that was surely a scarey experience. Did the young man get cut by the stock being kicked back or did he get cut by the saw blade? I can understand your hesitation to go back on the saw. Whew, I guess I would be a bit gun shy as well if I witnessed this. Also, did the instructor go over what happened with the class when things calmed down or was it too late in the day for that? Maybe tomorrow??
I hope you go back and I sure hope that fellow is OK. Sure gets your attention, don't it?
Be safe Lee,
WEG

[lcm1947]

Hi WEG. No the blade didn't get him the wood did. It also hit the wall behind him and put at least a 1/2 to 3/4 inch gash in it. And yeah it was scarey. No the instructor actually got a little miffed about it. Said it was the first accident that he had ever had in one of his many years of holding classes. I personally doubt that as the class should really be a perfect example of how not to teach people. It is not a class for beginners - in my opinion and am glad I know a little about how to operate tools and safety. I like the guy, he is very good and experienced and am enjoying the class but man there is no mention of safety. I really am surprised that Woodcrafters would allow such unsafe goings on but I guess if this is his first accident I shouldn't bad mouth him and I really don't mean to but it's true. I was shocked when I first went in to see that the saw didn't even have a spitter on it nor blade guard and none of the cuts we did required that both be off. I was also pretty leary that the sliding miter saw cabinet rolled around so much. I personally expect my tool benches or stands to not move around and especially not so easy. Anyway, I may be using my circular saw for awhile.

[Scottydont]

I know what you mean. After sseing a couple of kickbacks as a High School Woodshop teaching assistant I always air on the side of caution. They shook me up too. They didn't use spliiters or guards and a couple of kids graduated with shortened fingers. I now always use a splitter and guard, featherboards and pushblocks whenever possible. After all you are dealing with wood made by mother nature. All it takes is a poor technique and or something like stresses being relieved in the wood by the cut and kickbacks can happen. Tablesaws are inherently dangerous but the risk can be minimized by education and good safety practices. My advice is plan your cuts and if it doesn't feel safe, don't. You can ask someone here about what you are trying to do or find a different or safer way to make a cut.

In my opinion seasoned woodworkers who say that they don't use guards and have never had a kickback is like me saying that I have ner worn a seatbelt and never had an accident. In both cases if you do have an accident, you will regret you didn't use the safety devices that many of us recommend.

[rbfunk]

>I was shocked when I first went in to see that the saw didn't even >have a spitter on it nor blade guard and none of the cuts we did >required that both be off.
And this was the instructors first accident?
Now I wasn't there so maybe I am out of line but no safety discussion? No guard on the saw? I know there are 2 camps on this but Guard and splitter off in a class like this seems to be a bad idea. Then a sliding miter saw cabinet rolling around?
Maybe it's this one instructor maybe.
Bob

[final_t]

How many fingers does this instructor have again? But you should have seen the demos going on at the woodworking shows and the singular lack of safety there, and how nobody but me seemed to care.

[lcm1947]

The instructor had all ten fingers. [:O] He did make some cuts himself
thoughout the day that scared me to death watching but he made it look so simple. He's good no doubt about it. I just really really think a little supervision could have prevented the accident. The class seemed to me to be too concerned with getting things done with no consideration of how much experience students had or thier abilities. I guess it was assumed that we all knew the tools and about safety but regardless of our experience the saw should have had at least the spitter on it teaching an assortment of people like that. I keep seeing the student take his eyes off the wood against the fence for just a second and POW! I'm sure we'll talk about it tomorrow since it was close to the end of the day so we didn't have much time left in the class. Oh yeah the wood shot straight back if I remember correctly. I'm going to make a point tomorrow to check out exactly where on the wall the gash is in relationship to the blade is. I always have wondered if it's to one side or the other that the wood gets thrown. Course I guess it varies somewhat but still be interesting.

[atgcpaul]

Another student and I were on either side of a kickback last year.
The operator wasn't hurt but it woke us up. The piece of wood flew
about 20' feet and slammed into the cinder block wall. Turns out he's
a BT3100 owner, too.

The least unsafe operation I saw in my WWing class was this guy
using a 3/4" dado set to rip a board. He was too lazy to change
blades.

The worst accident we had at the school last year didn't involve
a tool at all. One of the smaller women students tripped while
carrying a sheet of plywood (I don't know if she was being helped).
She ended up with a severe compound fracture in her arm.

[monte]

Seems like the instructor would have at least used a splitter on the table saw. That may have prevented the kickback.

[leehljp]

Being skilled (and fortunate because of it) versus being a good teacher are two different animals. I know many people in many professions that are uniquely skilled at what they do, but they are not good teachers. The best that they can do as teachers is let others watch them. Unfortunately, in woodworking and in many other jobs, mere mimicry does not instill the "feel or instinct" necessary for all the variables, which lead to disastrious results.

Many aspects of computering are instinctive to me. ( I learned binary in the early 60's[:I] ) But teaching what I know about basic computer operation or program operations is not easy. I can write instructions out much better than I can stand behind or in front of someone and teach.

This guy might be one of those. I see this kind of person often. We are dangerous to others.


RELATED story:
About 20 years ago, I read a story about Mt Blanc or some other mountain in Europe. One question to a park official was "What is the most dangerous situaion for summer climbers to the mountain?"

His answer was: "The one lucky, physically fit person that starts at the bottom, climbs the mountain and comes down all in one day. After that, they get a rash of accidents of others who try to do the same."

[cwsmith]

ICM,

Perhaps the "kickback" was a priceless lesson! One of the great challenges of woodworking (or any "working" for that matter) is to do it safely. Frankly I've all too often UNIMPRESSED with so many of the so-called shop teachers and tool demonstrators that I've seen. Very few walk through the safety concerns that are essential for safe shop practice.

When I was 14, I witnessed my father loose two fingers and mangle a third using a table saw. It was a nasty experience and one which left a lasting impression. Perhaps more so, because it was my DAD! Here was a guy who had gone through the Depression, WWII, and had done more dangerous things that he would never talk about. He was a guy who could do almost anything from engine work to plumbing and was good at it all; and HE lost fingers on table saw?! It was a few years before I could understand that.

I've owned an RAS for years and love it and have used it with never so much anything worse than stalling the motor. Yet everytime I approach any cutting tool, I do it with a great amount of caution and trepidation. I know how dangerous these things can be and I think every move through before I ever plug a power tool in. The "What If" is so burned into my mind that I'm no doubt over cautious, but such was the lesson learned when I was 14.

I just bought my first table saw, just before Christmas. The BT3100 is still in the box and will go in my new shop later this spring. But I have to admit, while excited by the prospects of this new tool, I still have some measure of apprehension about it too. I don't think anyone should be afraid or too scared to approach this hobby, but there certainly needs to be some healthy respect for the damage than can result from not paying attention or not being aware.

Best wishes,

CWS

[lcm1947]

I couldn't have put it any better CWS and sorry you had to witness your father's experience that mishap. I'm sure it's left a permanent lasting impresssion on you but perhaps some good will come of it if it saves you a similar experience or worst. Being a father myself I know I would trade that. I too am maybe over cautious but I'd rather be this way then the opposite. The instructor did pay attention to what and how we were doing things today -completely unlike yesterday. The young man did show up today. I was proud of him! He'll have to have plastic surgery he told us. It just tore the skin to the bone on top of his left hand. Poor kid but maybe this will save him worst as he is just getting into the hobby and this will no doubt leave him with a much greater respect for these tools. I know it did me. We finished our cabinets today by the way and I am extremely pleased with mine. A few mess ups but overall a fairly good looking cabinet. Now I just have to figure out how I want to finish it- finish wise. Anyway I am now an expert cabinet builder. How about that.

[conductorjonz]

I am new to this forum and have finally joined based on the fact that you offer much great info about my new BT3100 and other points of interest. However I decided join after seeing the kickback posts, as safety is near an dear to my hear. I had a piece kick back on me not long ago. Fortunately, I was missed, and unscathed...but nearly became wet in areas that hadn't been wet since I was 2 years old!

I stopped what I was doing and took some scrap wood and whipped up a few featherboards and put the safety splitter back where it belonged.

My wife is on me about safety all the time now. AARGHHH!

I now do nothing without thinking ahead, planning my "moves"...and working safely.

When I worked on the railroad as a conductor, and we got between rail cars to hook up air-hoses, or adjust the couplers, we told the engineer to give us "3-step protection". This was his cue to put the locomotive in neutral and remove the lever from the control stand, apply the brakes, and electrically isolate the traction motors...so the engine could run up to full throttle, and nothing would move no matter what!

I now have tried come up with some variation of that ideal for any power tools I use. IE for the BT-3100: Pull the safety key out of the switch, unplug the AC cord at the switch socket, and unpug the AC from the wall. Voila...3-Step protection.

Okay...maybe it's over the top, but I came close to getting a 100 ton hopper car in the face one night by not following the safety rules, so this is my way of putting myself in a comfort zone.

I enjoy the forum and posts from all the different experience levels involved. I respect that no one is looking down on anyone for asking for help too. You are all a great service. I hope to be an asset to the group as well.

Greg

[mater]

Welcome to the forum Greg and continue to be safe.

[gjat]

Doing it "safe" is doing it right. I learned 'tinkering' from my next door neighbor's grandfather who had lost 75% of his hand in two accidents. The first was a planer/jointer accident where he lost 2 fingers. The second was a few months later when a side grinder's abrasive blade exploded, removing most of his index, thumb, and the remainder of his long finger. This happened when he was a young man. The lesson he learned and shared is that to do it right, do it safe. There wasn't a single tool he was afraid to use, and not a single he used unsafely.