Ryobi == Apple

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  • VinceH
    Forum Newbie
    • Jan 2006
    • 11
    • Boulder, CO, USA.

    Ryobi == Apple

    Over the years I've been really frustrated with Apple. Not to start a flame war, but between 1984 and 2001 they had the opportunity to be a real competitor to Windows. But their advertising was totally lame. Artsy ads in a few slick magazines that said nothing about what the machine could *do*. This at a time when their OS was superior in many ways. They let people tag their machines as "game machines," and "Macintrashes"

    People won't buy your product if they don't know its features and advantages.

    Same thing with Ryobi. As far as I know they never got any of the WW magazines to test or evaluate the BT3X00. They never went to trade shows, never placed any meaningful ads. One of the highest forms of advertizing is to show your potential customers the features and advantages your product has. Instead they relied on the guys in the Tool Corral to be able to demonstrate what the machine could do. As if.

    BTW, since Jobs returned and especially since OSX, they're getting the idea, and guess what: The Mac market share has doubled in just the last year or so.

    [Once again, please no flame wars about Apple and the Mac. The point I want to make is about Ryobi and how their lame/nonexistant advertising and marketing doomed the product.]
  • ChrisD
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 881
    • CHICAGO, IL, USA.

    #2
    Hey Vince,

    Interesting observation.

    I truly believe that word of mouth, with a lot of help from this site, pretty much did the advertising for the BT3Kx. Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I think the are only a handful of brands that aggressively advertise their tablesaws, like Delta and Powermatic for the new contractor-style saw and PM2000, respectively. Most others just do a general spread, and I think it's because they believe their brand name is strong enough to get the message through.

    The BT3 is a great saw, but even its biggest fans admit that it has its limitations when compared with the more traditional big iron stuff. I think Ryobi knew that and as a result just decided to remain a "cult" than go mainstream. Otherwise I don't think they would have been nearly as successful as they have been with the BT3. Aggressive advertising would have probably driven up the cost, making it just a little easier to decide between it and, say, a TS3650.

    I don't think lack of good advertising killed the BT3. I think it simply has reached the end of its lifecycle as a product.

    My $0.02.
    The war against inferior and overpriced furniture continues!

    Chris

    Comment

    • VinceH
      Forum Newbie
      • Jan 2006
      • 11
      • Boulder, CO, USA.

      #3
      Originally posted by ChrisD
      Hey Vince,

      Interesting observation.

      I truly believe that word of mouth, with a lot of help from this site, pretty much did the advertising for the BT3Kx.
      That was all that did it. As with Apple, it was us fanboys that kept the BT3K going as long as it did.

      Originally posted by ChrisD
      Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I think the are only a handful of brands that aggressively advertise their tablesaws, like Delta and Powermatic for the new contractor-style saw and PM2000, respectively. Most others just do a general spread, and I think it's because they believe their brand name is strong enough to get the message through.
      Good point. But Ryobi never was a strong name in quality woodworking equipment. :-)

      Originally posted by ChrisD
      The BT3 is a great saw, but even its biggest fans admit that it has its limitations when compared with the more traditional big iron stuff. I think Ryobi knew that and as a result just decided to remain a "cult" than go mainstream. Otherwise I don't think they would have been nearly as successful as they have been with the BT3. Aggressive advertising would have probably driven up the cost, making it just a little easier to decide between it and, say, a TS3650.

      I don't think lack of good advertising killed the BT3. I think it simply has reached the end of its lifecycle as a product.

      My $0.02.
      The "big iron" didn't need to advertise. In some sense they were all alike.
      OTOH the BT3 series of saws had these unique features that needed to be explained: sliding mitre table, belt-driven, decent dust collection, blade guard, riving knife, anti-kickback pawls, good fence, and many accessories that could turn the saw into a tool that had features that rivalled the really big iron, such as the precision fence adjustment, outfeed table, router/jigsaw accessory, wide table, vacuum table, the list goes on. In fact it was never really a contractor's saw to be tossed into the back of a pickup truck, rather it required a bit of attention to keep it in tune.

      My $0.02 also. :-)

      Comment

      • vaking
        Veteran Member
        • Apr 2005
        • 1428
        • Montclair, NJ, USA.
        • Ryobi BT3100-1

        #4
        Vince,
        The world is full of companies that were or are making good products but cannot sell their goods or ideas. Beta VCR was technologically superior to VHS but Sony screwed up marketing big time, so VHS won. Ethernet is a foundation of modern corporate networking and it was invented at Xerox. The graphical user interface revolutionized personal computer and it also was born at Xerox. The only reason Xerox today is not the biggest company in the world is the fact Xerox management never had any managerial talent. Many people think that marketing and selling is actually harder than making good products. In most companies head of marketing or head of sales are next-in-line for precidency, not the technology managers. I also think that Ryobi was correct not to market BT3100 heavily. It is a saw targeted at a very small market and spending much on advertising to a small market would not pay.
        Alex V

        Comment

        • cgallery
          Veteran Member
          • Sep 2004
          • 4503
          • Milwaukee, WI
          • BT3K

          #5
          An interesting discussion. Here is my $.02:

          This is a volume issue. Ryobi's parent wants volume. They are comfortable with volume. They understand it and value it. They introduce a product, set a price, and flood the market. Once demand drops, they start dropping the price until demand returns. This cycle continues until it is no longer profitable enough to continue, or until the supply is gone.

          I'm not sure the volume model is ever the right model. Seriously. I don't care if labor is cheap in China. Profits are profits. I imagine that companies like Festool have a pretty nice bottom line. Selling routers for twice the price (or more) than everyone else is smart business. The problem w/ competing at the bottom line is the constant bottom-line pressure. Home Depot wants lower prices. Wal-Mart wants lower prices. OTOH, the last think a Festool owner wants to see is the router he purchased selling for 1/2 price!

          -Phil

          Comment

          • Tom Slick
            Veteran Member
            • May 2005
            • 2913
            • Paso Robles, Calif, USA.
            • sears BT3 clone

            #6
            does ryobi sell tools outside of home depot? maybe there was some sort of agreement between them?
            Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison

            Comment

            • crokett
              The Full Monte
              • Jan 2003
              • 10627
              • Mebane, NC, USA.
              • Ryobi BT3000

              #7
              Actually, I don't think Apple's marketing was the problem. I think they marketed their products (and still do) exactly they way they wanted to - artsy, somewhat elite (we're cooler than you). I think the business model was flawed. It is only the last year that the new Mac was released that can run both Windows and Mac OS. If the Mac OS is ever licensed retail for PC compatibles I would probably buy it.
              David

              The chief cause of failure in this life is giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment.

              Comment

              • cwsmith
                Veteran Member
                • Dec 2005
                • 2737
                • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                • BT3100-1

                #8
                Over my more than 40 years as a technical writer and illustrator, I've worked with far too many "marketing" types and have found most to be rather lacking in both knowledge of their products or their customer's needs. All too often it's a matter of taking something that get's built and trying to convince the top management that it will eventually sell, simply because it exists.

                IMHO, Ryobi marketing seemed to simply forget that the tool even existed. The web site gave it no more space or information than it did any of its other tools and the only sales piece that I ever saw, although not particularly bad, was limited and not readily available. (I do have a copy though.)

                In Home Depot, it was this multi-colored, aluminum and plastic lightweight that was pushed behind Ridgid's 3650 cast iron table saw and it's portable 2400 model. Both of which fitted nicely into the contractor's view of what they might expect in a table saw. But where did that leave the BT3K?

                Sure, guys like you and I might come along and take notice of it's unique features, but don't ask an orange apron about it and don't look for any support information like a brochure or anything. Unfortunately, one all too often would find the BT looking a bit worse for wear and missing a few parts. It was simply a rather odd tool sitting in the background like some unwanted step-child. (Sort of like a 54' VW bug, missing two tires and it's trunk lid, sitting in the back corner of the local GM dealership!)

                To make things worse, accessories, add-ons, etc., were pretty much unknown. With the exception of this terrific web site, the only thing known of this "Precision Cutting System" was that it's label proclaimed it as such. So, if you were the curious type and/or didn't have deep pockets, you might explore further, search the web or find a referral to "Bt3Central". Chances are that if you got as far as this web site you were either really curious or looking for confirmation that spending just $300 wasn't a matter of folly.

                Bottom line of course is that here (and only here) would you find that this saw had some rather unique features. It's design and function were well thought out and although there might be a thing or two that was questionable, there were a rather large number of very dedicated woodworkers who were making this little saw "sing".

                Unfortunately, Ryobi Marketing was no where to be found in any of this happenstance. Too bad, because between Ryobi's inability to proclaim the execution of it's great design, and Home Depot's nearsighted stance of focusing only on the contractor and home improvement business, a rather worthy product has fallen off the shelf.

                CWS
                Think it Through Before You Do!

                Comment

                • mpc
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2005
                  • 979
                  • Cypress, CA, USA.
                  • BT3000 orig 13amp model

                  #9
                  I agree that the marketing for the BT3's was lame from the get-go. Home Depots rarely ever had any sort of sign near the saw listing its features - it was up to the customer to "notice" odd things like the sliding table and ask "what's this do?" If they got lucky, they asked a knowledgable HD employee and obtained a useful answer. When HD was first moving into my area, the employees seemed a lot more knowledgable and helpful... but as time marched on all they seem to want now are minimum wagers.

                  So much marketing these days is aimed at "those who follow the herd" types... catchly jingles, claims that any schmo will be "cool" if they just buy this product, etc - basically aiming at the lowest common denominator brain-dead person that seems to be the vast majority of the US consumer army. Or that it's cheaper than Brand X. Not much of anything in the US is marketed on merit/feature comparison. It's either jingles or price. Nobody makes a marketing effort aimed at people who can think for themselves.

                  When I got my BT3000 (a 13 amp model, that's how old it is) the Internet didn't really exist, forums like this didn't exist, etc. Ryobi couldn't benefit from sites like this one... they were just another funky manufacturer name to me at the time. Not being able to afford much of anything - but wanting stuff and enjoying browsing tool retailers - gave me plenty of time to do my own "what's the features of this one? What does this 'sliding miter table' really do? What are the safety features of this saw? What safety features are missing?" comparisons.

                  mpc

                  p.s. can you tell "Marketing" is a sore spot with me? VHS winning over Beta or Super-8 is just one example that irks me no end...

                  Comment

                  • prlundberg
                    Established Member
                    • May 2006
                    • 183
                    • Minnesota
                    • Craftsman 21829

                    #10
                    Originally posted by vaking
                    Beta VCR was technologically superior to VHS but Sony screwed up marketing big time...
                    That is a myth, main reason Betamax failed was the 1 hour record time when it was introduced, compared to 4 hours (LP mode) for VHS. Good points otherwise, but sorry, I had to say something...

                    As for marketing the BT, I usually don't see marketing for most tablesaws, period. Most people who buy a saw in the BT's price range are not the types to subscribe to woodworking magazines or watch wordworking shows. The most advertising they see is by the stores that sell it, and those stores would prefer to sell a more expensive, larger profit margin model. I think members of this website are the exceptions rather than the majority. I could be wrong, that's just my two cents.

                    That said, I probably would have considered the 21829 if not for this website. When I first saw it, I assumed it was just another cheap benchtop with expensive accessories.

                    Phil
                    Phil

                    Comment

                    • mac_daddy
                      Forum Newbie
                      • May 2006
                      • 84
                      • Sugar Land, TX
                      • BT3000

                      #11
                      I've seen a press release printed in the latest Workbench showing some of Ryobi's newest ONE+ compatible tools. Looks like they're mostly johnny-come-lately items to round out the whole ONE+ series, nothing spectacular.

                      Perhaps this shows that Ryobi wants to niche towards the intro hobbyist?

                      Comment

                      • JR
                        The Full Monte
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 5633
                        • Eugene, OR
                        • BT3000

                        #12
                        I'm not into flaming on the topic of Mac vs PC, but I think your premise completely misses the mark both in the Apple comparison and in the analysis of Ryobi's activities.

                        Apple was, and is, wildly successful by any rational measure. It is a colossal irony that Apple, the far-and-away leader in computer "kit" technology, chose the way of the closed architecture in order to have a fighting chance when battling the computer giants.

                        This transition forms the core of the narrative in Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm, the bible for technology marketing execs. The main point is that a fledgling technology company needs to find a way to make the transition from whatever cool idea got them started (Apple II) to a disciplined organization able to make informed decisions about strategy, then act willfully in causing them to happen. The execution of the Macintosh plan is the most successful example of this kind of transition so far. For alternatives see Osborne, Commodrore, TRS-80, et al.

                        The ironic part comes where IBM, the gigantor champion of Big Blue closed-architecture strategies, and the prototype for companies feared by Apple, chose an open-architcture that completely shifted the market the day it came out. The beauty of IBM's success was not in the measured way in which they planned and executed far-reaching strategy. Instead, lacking corporate will for a defined plan in this undefined, fast-moving new market segment, they chose to essentially let their system go to market without a strong plan. But the IBM badge was enough of a stimulus to cause all other manufacturers to focus their energies on supplying software, blades, and accessories compatible with IBM product.

                        IBM's plan became, therefore, a sort of scorched-earth policy in which they weren't able to bring innovations to market, so they caused the market to be defined as getting minimal features for minimal price. Everyone, including IBM, was eventually consumed in the holocaust - except Apple!

                        That Apple's approach was competitive for so long is a testament to their marketing, not a mark against it. All during the battle for the desktop, Apple maintined high margins through differentiation while the PC market was dissolving into a classic mature market, following Moore's law of price and speed, and identifiable by low margins and manufacturers competing on price alone.

                        Now that I've got that off my chest! Ryobi made a deal with the devil. Home Depot has exclusive rights to distributioin in North America. Sears has private-labeled Ryobi product, making the Sears branded BT such a significantly different tool that it seems to be allowed under the contract. On balance, it's probably been a good thing for Ryobi, which was a fledgling brand in America when they made the deal.

                        In the alternative, Ryobi would have been obliged to establish multiple channels to market, costing them tons of dough. That can be a complicated endeavor when your brand is oriented to "good capability at a modest price". The HD list price on a Ryobi tool is frequently 1/3 to 1/2 less than the comparable Delta product Norm uses. There's not much free cash flow in that model.

                        The BT3K is a very innovative product, but the overarching branding doesn't support innovation as much as it supports low price.

                        If you want to examine a tool company trying to establish themselves cleverly, look at Steel City Tool Works http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/ . These guys are entering the market at the high end, where it can be assumed they see an opportunity to differentiate themselves through quality, support, and/or features.

                        My full measre of 2c.

                        JR
                        JR

                        Comment

                        • leehljp
                          Just me
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 8429
                          • Tunica, MS
                          • BT3000/3100

                          #13
                          Strange that both Ryobi and Apple had battles with the "Borg"!

                          Ryobi's BT3x got assimilated and run out business by the Big Orange Retail Giant; Apple almost got run out of business by the Redmond BORG, but they escaped and are making a fair fight now that their Intel machines run more different software than ANY other company's computers.
                          Hank Lee

                          Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                          Comment

                          • ElRay
                            Established Member
                            • Jan 2003
                            • 367
                            • NoIL

                            #14
                            FUD Factor too

                            Don't forget, most of the BT3k's and Apple's problems stem from the fact that too many people make decisions based on FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) instead of actual facts, research and analysis.

                            Ray
                            "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
                            --- Robert A. Heinlein

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