Rolling Right Turn on Red in CA

[cgallery]

Bad analogy. As a general rule, putting my hand in a running saw risks injury directly only to me. Running a red light directly endangers others. I don't know if the 500.00 fine is excessive or not. It is not excessive if he stops at the next red light like he was supposed to.

If you're talking about the actual injury, sure. But you'd have to also take into account the costs to insurance pools to reattach your fingers, etc. You chopping off your fingers costs ME money. You may go on permanent disability (cost to me again). Just like smokers costs non-smokers moola. A price I'm willing to pay, BTW, to live in a non-police state.

But I'll give you that one.

So if we're out to eliminate risks while driving, let's just say no cell phones in cars, period. They must be turned off. No talking on handsfree devices, as they've also been shown to distract drivers and lead to accidents.

If you want to talk about a spike in traffic accidents, cell phones are where it's at. And it has been proven through a number of studies that using a headset is BETTER than not, but still substantially worse than a focused driver (roughly equiv. to a slightly inebriated driver).

While we're at it, how about zero tolerance for alcohol in the blood. None. Notta. Why allow drivers to drive impaired at all?

Sound good?

My point is, the municipalities are going after rolling-stops not because they've high-risk. You could certainly make driving safer for everyone by eliminating cells phones and having zero tolerance for alcohol. Municipalities are going after rolling stops because of the ca-ching.

Do you honestly think that if the states and local governments weren't in dire financial straits that they'd be sending $500 tickets for rolling stops?

[gjat]

This will be the last I have to say on the matter. It doesn't matter if cities make money putting up red-light cameras, the system is to change driver behavior to obey the traffic control devices. Sorry about your lack of knowledge regarding the legalities of the circumstances of how an officer can write a red-light ticket in various states, the engineering of the detection system, and the engineering of an intersection. It's not your task to know all that, but it is your responsibility to obey the rules of law for your safety and others.

Intersection conflicts and crashes pose dangers to both vehicle occupants and pedestrians. In crashes at intersections vehicle occupants are vulnerable to severe injury and death because the
majority of the collisions involve side impacts into one of the vehicles. Side impacts have higher rates of deaths and serious injuries because there is comparatively little vehicle protective structure to safeguard occupants in the struck vehicle.

Addressing intersection-related crashes in a comprehensive and focused way is a highly complex task. Intersections range in type all the way from complicated expressway interchanges, which attempt to control vehicle entry and departure movements through the use of various geometric design and traffic engineering strategies, down to simple, rural right-angle intersections often controlled by only stop or yield signs. In many cases there are no traffic control devices of any kind.

INTERSECTION SAFETY FACTS

In 2003, more than 1.9 million intersection crashes occurred throughout the nation. Of those, red light running crashes accounted for 219,000 crashes, 181,000 injuries and approximately 1,000 deaths. (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, IIHS, and Federal Highway Administration, FHWA, 2004)

Fifty-eight percent (58%) of all pedestrian injuries and twenty-one percent (21%) of fatal injuries to pedestrians occur in collisions with motor vehicles at intersections. (IIHS, 2005)

In 2004, there were more than 9,117 fatal "intersection" or "intersection-related" crashes nationwide. This accounts for approximately one of every five fatal crashes on our roads. (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, NHTSA, 2005)

In urban areas, nearly 50% of all crashes occur at intersections. (FHWA, 2005)

An overwhelming three-fourths (78%) of the American public believe more attention should be paid to making dangerous intersections safer for drivers. An even higher number, 85%, think they need to be made safer for pedestrians. (Louis Harris Poll, Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety, 2001, 1999)

According to a survey conducted by the U.S. Department of Transportation and the American Trauma Society, 63% of Americans see someone running a red light at least a few times a week and, at most, once a day. One in three Americans knows someone who has been injured or killed by a red-light runner. (1998)

[tommyt654]

Gjat, Is your tag still on your pillow?

[crokett]

I don't know. I have no idea how long the red light cameras have been there or how long the fine has been 500.00. I do know the cameras in this area have been here for a lot longer than the current recession. There are 3 intersections within about a mile radius of campus that have cameras installed. I know that drivers (including me) are much better behaved since the cameras went in. The municipality doesn't see that entire 500.00 anyway, generally the company that installs the cameras and processes the images gets a cut of the money.

What I do know is if you obey the law and stop at a red light, you won't get a fine, no matter how much it is. The OP is expecting sympathy for disobeying a traffic law. He would probably get it from me if it were a judgement call issue, such as being ticketed for being at fault in an accident when the other guy did the stupid thing. However, this is simple. Stop at red lights, or risk the consequences.

Do you honestly think that if the states and local governments weren't in dire financial straits that they'd be sending $500 tickets for rolling stops?

[cgallery]

This will be the last I have to say on the matter. It doesn't matter if cities make money putting up red-light cameras, the system is to change driver behavior to obey the traffic control devices. Sorry about your lack of knowledge regarding the legalities of the circumstances of how an officer can write a red-light ticket in various states, the engineering of the detection system, and the engineering of an intersection. It's not your task to know all that, but it is your responsibility to obey the rules of law for your safety and others.

Thanks for the lecture and the condescension.

I'm not sure your statistics are especially relevant (actually, they just aren't), because they don't address the "offense" we're discussing.

There is a world of difference between "red light running" and "turning on red without a full stop." You want to lump everything together, as if there is no difference between drinking two beers and drinking two six packs (and then driving). No can do.

And speaking of alcohol, you didn't address my questions in regards to cell phones or drinking and driving. I'm not sure if that was an oversight, or agreement on your part that I'm right and there are much better ways to improve traffic safety.

Very few of you reading this will always perform a full stop while turning on red. Even Gjat. If you tell me you always do, then you may as well tell me you've never picked your nose, because I won't believe you.

You've done it when you've determined that it is safe to do so.

The machine says it is NEVER safe to do so. It is an iron fist with which you cannot argue.

Some of these devices are private/public partnerships. The very corporations that design signalling systems are now partnering with municipalities to install these types of contraptions. The corporation gets a cut. Google it.

I'll say it again: If you want to increase road safety, just get rid of the phones and zero tolerance for drinking. But unlike tickets for turns on red, it will cost the governments money to do so. So it is unlikely to happen.

[cgallery]

I don't know. I have no idea how long the red light cameras have been there or how long the fine has been 500.00. I do know the cameras in this area have been here for a lot longer than the current recession. There are 3 intersections within about a mile radius of campus that have cameras installed. I know that drivers (including me) are much better behaved since the cameras went in. The municipality doesn't see that entire 500.00 anyway, generally the company that installs the cameras and processes the images gets a cut of the money.

What I do know is if you obey the law and stop at a red light, you won't get a fine, no matter how much it is. The OP is expecting sympathy for disobeying a traffic law. He would probably get it from me if it were a judgement call issue, such as being ticketed for being at fault in an accident when the other guy did the stupid thing. However, this is simple. Stop at red lights, or risk the consequences.

Just for the record, most communities have been in financial trouble for far longer than the current recession. They're tapped out, and have been for decades. The unfunded liabilities alone (pensions, for example) are enough to take your breath away.

The public/private partnership of the entire system doesn't make me feel any better (worse, of course).

Now we have an entity with a clear profit motive involved.

Question for you, if the cameras are so effective at improving safety, where are the independently verifiable statistics that show a drop in accidents at those intersections?

If they had them, I guarantee you they'd share them.

Because government (and corporations with profit motives) love to justify their actions. "See, we installed these cameras, and look at the huge decrease in accidents."

But wait, no, this just in, the cameras make it WORSE! Yes! WORSE!

Reports From The Media
Washington Post
This report showed an overall increase in accidents at red-light camera intersections of 107 percent.
KATU
KATU News reviewed city statistics and found a 140 percent increase in rear-end crashes at the intersections where red light cameras were installed.
The Coloradoan
Ft. Collins, Colorado has experienced an 83 percent increase in the number of accidents since red light cameras were installed.
North County Times
This report is showing a 800 percent increase in rear-end accidents
Philadelphia Weekly
This article showed an increase of 10 to 21 percent in accidents in intersections with red-light cameras.

(Source of links: http://www.motorists.org/photoenforc...ions-increase/)

My favorite quote (from the first link):

The analysis shows that the number of crashes at locations with cameras more than doubled, from 365 collisions in 1998 to 755 last year. Injury and fatal crashes climbed 81 percent, from 144 such wrecks to 262. Broadside crashes, also known as right-angle or T-bone collisions, rose 30 percent, from 81 to 106 during that time frame. Traffic specialists say broadside collisions are especially dangerous because the sides are the most vulnerable areas of cars.

This is about revenue, not safety. The safety issue is a charade.

Follow the money trail.

[tommyt654]

I wonder if that machine will also Mirandize him, Thats a law as well?, Oh, Cgallery I,m rofl after seeing your stats

[cgallery]

I wonder if that machine will also Mirandize him, Thats a law as well?

No, that is a non-issue.

[WoodTherapist]

As someone who has witnessed the carnage first hand, and also as someone who was still a boy when his father and best friend was killed by a person who rolled through a stop sign, I understand gjat’s position.

My opinion is that we all tend to think we are good drivers and if we get a ticket for some ‘minor’ infraction it is unfair because, if the system worked better, justice would dictate that we should be given a break. Or we may think we unfairly received a ticket because some jurisdictions are abusing the system to generate revenue, etc. No doubt, any of those reasons, and more, could be valid for any particular situation. However, the fact is that almost all of us do not drive as safely as we think we do and if justice were to actually prevail we would probably receive a lot more traffic tickets. For the safety of ourselves, our families, and our fellow man, we should use a traffic ticket as a wake up call and a reminder to be diligent. End of soapbox.

[cgallery]

For the safety of ourselves, our families, and our fellow man, we should use a traffic ticket as a wake up call and a reminder to be diligent. End of soapbox.

Agreed. But $500 is excessive, and they're actually creating safety issues at the intersections where these things operate.