C0nsumer Reports helps Trial Lawyers again

[JimD]

My only track time in my car was at an autocross organized by the local chapter of the BMW Car Club of America (BMWCCA) at the BMW performance center. It was higher speed than the few other autocrosses I had done. Fast drivers were getting over 70 mph, I got a little over 60. They put cones on the track to slow us down or we would have gone faster. In some of the driving courses on this track, one of the instructors told me they go over 100 mph. Because I own a convertible, I cannot drive in driving schools organized by the BMWCCA without an approved roll bar. I drove the same track at lower speeds in a BMW owned by the performance center when my son and I took delivery at the Performance Center (it was a blast).

My son's truck is older than he is and has "three on the tree". Who knows what that is? Who has driven a truck or car with this sort of transmission? It is far too old to have any sort of stability package so if you go too fast into the corner and lift off the gas, you are going to be spinning (or worse). One of the things that bugs me about labeling a SUV unsafe because of a little tail wagging is somebody might own a model a few years old with no stability protection. The Lexus may not be most of our definition of ideal with respect to stability protection but it would be a lot safer most of the time than a vehicle with none. That point could be missed by the somewhat overblown (IMHO) warning put out by Consumer Reports. It could also have other desirable features that make it a good choice versus a SUV with "better" stability protection.

Jim

[cabinetman]

My only track time in my car was at an autocross organized by the local chapter of the BMW Car Club of America (BMWCCA) at the BMW performance center. It was higher speed than the few other autocrosses I had done. Fast drivers were getting over 70 mph, I got a little over 60. They put cones on the track to slow us down or we would have gone faster. In some of the driving courses on this track, one of the instructors told me they go over 100 mph. Because I own a convertible, I cannot drive in driving schools organized by the BMWCCA without an approved roll bar. I drove the same track at lower speeds in a BMW owned by the performance center when my son and I took delivery at the Performance Center (it was a blast).

My son's truck is older than he is and has "three on the tree". Who knows what that is? Who has driven a truck or car with this sort of transmission? It is far too old to have any sort of stability package so if you go too fast into the corner and lift off the gas, you are going to be spinning (or worse). One of the things that bugs me about labeling a SUV unsafe because of a little tail wagging is somebody might own a model a few years old with no stability protection. The Lexus may not be most of our definition of ideal with respect to stability protection but it would be a lot safer most of the time than a vehicle with none. That point could be missed by the somewhat overblown (IMHO) warning put out by Consumer Reports. It could also have other desirable features that make it a good choice versus a SUV with "better" stability protection.

Jim

Three on the tree is a three speed shift, on the steering column. If your area puts on an autocross school, you can have instructors ride with you through the course. That's the best way to learn vehicle dynamics. Traction and stability control is turned off and you'll learn how to control a car.

Lifting off the accelerator in a turn has the same weight dynamic as applying the brakes. It induces oversteering. If you take one of BMW's Driver's Schools, you can learn how to control over/understeering.

You might be able to buddy up with another guy that has a sedan or coupe, and drive his car. We do that here all the time. They just put the two of you in different groups.
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[JimD]

C'man,

I thought you would know about a three speed on the column. My dad had one years ago and now my son has one. It lets a manual transmission pickup have a three person bench seat but otherwise it is not the way I would want a transmission to work. But it's functional.

There are probably a couple guys with coupes similar to my convertible I could buddy with the next time there is a driving school nearby. But I'd really prefer to just use mine. I found an outfit that sells a bolt in roll bar that I think would fit (I think they would tell me, they sell it for the coupe for more dedicated track cars). It costs about $1500 which seems like a lot until you consider the difference between what a BMWCCA driving day costs versus a day's formal training at the performance center (another reasonable alternative). So I know how to fix it if I want to spend what a better table saw would cost me. Buddying with somebody is the cheapest.

Jim

[cabinetman]

C'man,

I thought you would know about a three speed on the column. My dad had one years ago and now my son has one. It lets a manual transmission pickup have a three person bench seat but otherwise it is not the way I would want a transmission to work. But it's functional.

There are probably a couple guys with coupes similar to my convertible I could buddy with the next time there is a driving school nearby. But I'd really prefer to just use mine. I found an outfit that sells a bolt in roll bar that I think would fit (I think they would tell me, they sell it for the coupe for more dedicated track cars). It costs about $1500 which seems like a lot until you consider the difference between what a BMWCCA driving day costs versus a day's formal training at the performance center (another reasonable alternative). So I know how to fix it if I want to spend what a better table saw would cost me. Buddying with somebody is the cheapest.

Jim

If you get Roundel, or your local chapter CCA newsletter, you may find a good deal on safety equipment including a harness (great for autocrossing). If I had my way my everyday street car would be roll bar equipped. You could make it enticing to a friend to pay his school fee.

Check with your local chapter to see if they put on just a Safety School. That's usually half or more less than a regular Drivers School. You'll get skid pad training, braking, and lane changing (slalom) training. We have them here for any licensed driver...wives and kids. It may save their life.
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[knotley]

My son's truck is older than he is and has "three on the tree". Who knows what that is? Who has driven a truck or car with this sort of transmission? It is far too old to have any sort of stability package so if you go too fast into the corner and lift off the gas, you are going to be spinning (or worse).

Jim

1981 F150? Steering column part no longer available in USA or Canada. On a trip to Mexico, went to wrecker, 7 of those parts sitting on the shelf! It was a funny explanation at Customs - "You are bring auto parts back from Mexico?"

[JimD]

I think its a 1978 F100. It might be a 1977. I can never remember. Tom has had to rebuild the shift mechanism using parts from the hardware store. It used to break sometimes but seems to be holding together recently. I drive it occasionally. He's done a good job to rebuild a lot of it but it is still a little scary for me. The steering seems to have a lot of play, the brakes work but don't seem at first like they are going to. Engine has been rebuilt and hopped up so it is a strong point (300 in 6 with headers, a cam, bored 60 over and a 4 barrel). he put a retrofit kit to give it power locks and a fob but the locks were locking and unlocking themselves last time I drove it. It is an on-going project but he loves it.

Jim

[Mr__Bill]

......The steering seems to have a lot of play,

Jim

You may be able to tighten up the steering gear and get rid of some of that play in the steering. On a 90 Ford if I remember correctly it's a bit slotted screw with a lock nut it may be the same on your 78.


Bill
on the Sunny Oregon Coast

[Slik Geek]

I believe that cars sometimes accelerate when the driver did not intend for that to happen. In the vast majority of these cases, what happened is the driver stepped on the accelerator when they meant to step on the brake.

Braking partially or half-heartedly can cause the brakes to get too hot to stop the car when you give up and apply them fully. If you apply them fully initially, the car will always stop.
Jim

A few years ago I was driving a 1998 Ford Taurus (the 200 HP version). As I came to a stop sign, I noticed that it took a bit longer than expected to stop. I thought it was odd and determined to pay closer attention the next time that I stopped.

The next intersection was a "T"-style, and I was on the leg (so I HAD to turn at the intersection). My road was the only one with a stop sign. In addition, I was coming down a fairly steep slope in approaching the stop sign. As I began braking, I noticed that I wasn't slowing very much, so I pushed harder, with little effect. I was getting closer to the intersection but not slowing much. Cars were passing in front of me, and my concern turned to panic as I began pushing with all of my strength on the brake and received little resulting stopping power.

I finally had the pedal buried to the floor, and came to a stop just in time (but well past where I normally would have stopped). And then I noticed that the engine was racing. I looked down and realized that my foot was between the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal.

I had boots on (winter time in the midwest), and the width of the boot was enough to bridge the gap between the pedals. As I pressed harder on the brake, I also began pressing on the accelerator at some point, and both were increasing proportionately as I attempted to brake harder.

While this was happening, I felt incredibly frustrated and helpless like the brakes were not working properly. In the panic, I couldn't hear the engine racing. If you could have interviewed me before I realized what was REALLY happening, I would have sworn to you that the brakes failed.

My point is that our perception is not always accurate, which I think is part of Jim's point. (And that the brakes will overcome the engine).

IIRC, Ford modified the Taurus later and allowed the driver to move the pedals further apart.

Woodturner,

The accidents are either totally driver error (pushing the wrong pedal)...
IMHO it is myth that driver error is not at least part of the problem in all unintended acceleration incidents.

CR has a nasty habit of blurring the line between data they have and their opinions that makes their input on cars pretty useless IMHO.

Jim

I agree with Jim's assessment on CR. I stopped subscribing to the magazine for that reason about 15 years ago. Some of the information is very useful and valuable, but some is simply awful.

I made the mistake of following their advice regarding vehicle reliability. My limited experience with three vehicles (all purchased new) has been that CR's vehicle reliability survey results are very misleading. A vehicle with several instances of minor problems per vehicle gets a lower rating than a vehicle with serious but occasional serious transmission and/or engine failures. The former can be repaired by anybody reasonably handy for under $50 with a screwdriver and 10 minutes of time, while the latter requires a service station and costs much more. The "weighting" on the reliability reports appears highly lacking.

I found Jim's suggestion of "truedelta" very interesting. Their take on CR's reliability survey includes this statement:

"Consumer Reports' ratings are based on the number of 'serious problems' reported by its members. They never precisely define the term. Instead, Consumer Report's survey form leaves it up to each respondent to determine which problems are serious enough to report, an invitation to bias."

I think "truedelta" nailed it.

[woodturner]

I challenge you to find a test, conducted by a reputable outfit, where an unmodified vehicle overpowered their brakes.

I agree that many vehicles cannot overpower their brakes, but some can, based on testing we have done.

One test scenario:
Engage the parking brake and fully depress the brake pedal. Press the clutch, shift to first gear, rev engine to 2000 RPM, release the clutch. For many cars, the engine will then stall. For some cars and notable some pickup trucks, the vehicle will move forward - slowly, but it will move forward rather than stall. It appears to be a function of the low gearing on the trucks, among other things.

One point I didn't mention before concerning Audi is that the primary design issue seems to be have been human factors - they designed and placed the pedals in a somewhat unusual way that caused many drivers to press the accelerator rather than the brake because the accelerator was where the brake "should" have been.

[cabinetman]

I agree that many vehicles cannot overpower their brakes, but some can, based on testing we have done.

What or who was the testing for and where was it done. Who is we?
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[phi1l]

From Research I have done on a narrow country smow packed road west of Spooner WI, while driving just about any car, if you are wearing Pac Boots, you will end up with you foot on both the brake and the accelerator. Under these conditions the car will continue moving in a rapid spin until you hit the ditch.

[woodturner]

What or who was the testing for and where was it done. Who is we?
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"Our own testing has also confirmed this problem (a couple of my students decided to investigate this for their senior design class). "

[cabinetman]

If you are going to respond, please read prior posts and try to keep up.

"Our own testing has also confirmed this problem (a couple of my students decided to investigate this for their senior design class). "

I've read the posts and I'd like to keep up. I'm interested in the "testing". When you say "our own testing" specifically who are you referring to? And it's intriguing that they are students. Are you their teacher or professor? What kind of design class was it?
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[woodturner]

Cabinetman, you REALLY need to get a life. Maybe you could take up a hobby, learn to do woodworking or something.

Wouldn't that be a lot more enjoyable than harassing others here?

[cabinetman]

Cabinetman, you REALLY need to get a life. Maybe you could take up a hobby, learn to do woodworking or something.

Wouldn't that be a lot more enjoyable than harassing others here?

I'm just asking simple questions. How is that harassing?
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