The last automatic update I did broke XP and blue-screened it. It turned out to be the updated video driver. It was just luck I was sitting there when it did the updates and rebooted, else I'd never have known what the problem was. I haven't enabled automatic updates since. Ubuntu has automatic updates too, I don't have them enabled either.
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David
The chief cause of failure in this life is giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment. -
Linux - playtime
Linux can be extremely frustrating. Once you get everything together that you need and get it working the way you want, you seem to be OK. Comes the day you want one more thing - and it's been months since you updated anything on your system - you find that the version of that 'one more thing' is really a new thing that requires a later version of the kernel - which requires that all your existing applications be updated to work with it - and you find that one of the apps you depend on isn't available for the latest kernel version, but you didn't know this until after you installed the latest kernel - and then you find out that the kernel has abandoned your PostScript Level 1 printer because someone decided, arbitrarily, there were too many old level printers supported - and then you find out that installing the latest kernel also requires a complete install from scratch, not an update - and then you find out that the install completely wiped out all your data (you did make a backup didn't you?, and didn't forget anything, did you?) - and then you find out that the powers that be changed the basic tools supporting the system so that you are once again unfamiliar with how they operate - and then....
MikeVeterans are people who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check payable to the United States of America, for an amount up to and including their life.Comment
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online at http://www.theFrankes.com
while ( !( succeed = try() ) ) ;
"Life is short, Art long, Occasion sudden and dangerous, Experience deceitful, and Judgment difficult." -HippocratesComment
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I have no issue with Linux and variants, or more specifically Unix and its variants. Used to use Unix systems quite a bit, actually. But it would be impossible for me to put Linux on my system and do even 1/10 of the things that I do. It's not the OS, of course, but believe it or not, I use my computer for things other than web surf and word process. I think most people could switch to a Unix variant and be happier than with windows, look at Mac OS, for instance, but there just isn't enough hardware and software support out there to date.
Now I'm sure you'll argue with me, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about, so let me head it off by giving an example.
Sonar 7/8 - not available on linux, and no acceptably comprable is there either. Sure you can multi-track record, but not with the flexibility, plug-in support, or mixing quality that comes out of Sonar.
Games - only a small fraction of 3D games (the OpenGL compatible subset) are available on systems other than windows. While as a game developer I support OpenGL and would LOVE for it to dominate over D3D, it just isn't the case. Mostly because of the funding that Microsoft pours into it regularly. Also as a game developer, I need to be able to play some games on a regular basis to keep up with industry trends and spark ideas.
Dev Studio - my fav IDE, have not really found one for Linux that I like as well. Also, as I am typically developing for windows as a primary target platform (due to install base), it is a good idea to test it regularly, and honestly, the drivers are more regularly looked after for windows than other OS's.
So it's a problem. Ideally I would keep a few machines here, some running Linux, and at least 1 mac, but the $$$ and time have been prohibative. Again, for your average user, Linux "CAN" be a great choice, like the Lindows project.Keith Z. Leonard
Go Steelers!Comment
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David
The chief cause of failure in this life is giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment.Comment
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Kubuntu 8.04, Fedora 10, Debian 4.0r6 were the 3 latest on a desktop I dedicated to trying out various versions. My XP laptop has SuSE 10.3 bootable thru GRUB and it will soon go unsupported. Downloaded 11.0 but was too afraid to install it, and just the other day 11.1 - but living in fear I will not be able to just do an upgrade and will lose everything I have on 10.3 and it may even blow away my XP software. Right now SuSE 10.3 supports the printer I mentioned previously and I couldn't believe none of the others I tried support it. They also failed to detect the floppy drive on the desktop - all 3 failed to detect it. In both cases I went to bugzilla and opened reports and got zero resolution. Seemed there were dozens of similar failures and no real fix - unless you were willing to do a whole bunch of manual stuff to your system to get to the floppy - and do some of it every time you wanted to use the floppy. No indication for anything permanent. The printer problem was simply ignored.
Seems too many 'updates' to get to later kernels by all of the various systems causes none of them to be dependable. Far too many things get broken each time and take forever to fix - and that is probably because they are on the the next new thing. Ubuntu/Kubuntu updates every 6 months with a periodic version designated for 'long term support' - 2 years. WOW.
The entire environment seems like argumentative chaos and seemed for a while to be getting better, but I think it is once again going downhill rapidly. Just follow a site like DistroWatch.com to see the rapid changes or follow bugzilla for a while to look at the problems. Very disheartening - I really want to get off M'soft on all 4 of the machines we have in the house, but don't see it happening soon.
Just discovered Sketchup and I don't think it will run under Linux. It seems to be the free software of choice for woodworking with all sorts of templates, examples, projects, etc. available for download.
MikeVeterans are people who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check payable to the United States of America, for an amount up to and including their life.Comment
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Mike,
I have a spare laptop at work. I installed Ubuntu v7.10 on it last week and installed a couple apps on it. Then I did all the system updates. Then I told it to upgrade to v8.04, which it did quite nicely. Then I told it to upgrade again to v8.10. As far as I can tell, all my data, etc is still there. Certainly my /home directory is. So at least for ubuntu, the upgrade was pretty painless. I've had similar problems upgrading Windows that you've had upgrading Linux. When I moved from Windows 98 to the debacle that was ME, I had to roll back to 98. When moved from that to Windows 2000, I had to start with a fresh install because there was no upgrade path. I haven't bothered with Vista because I know I have some apps and hardware at home that won't run under Vista. Apple is the only company right now that is releasing an OS that mostly avoids the issues you have, except you are locked into one company's vision of computing even more so than with Microsoft, plus you have even less choice with applications than you do with Linux. IMO, Linux is the best of both worlds.
If you want to see if your HW works, get a live CD of whatever distro you want and boot that before you upgrade.
As far as all the many distros, that is something that attracts me to Linux. If you can't find one you like, you can roll your own. Google Linux From Scratch. Most of them share common elements and differ on window dressing stuff - Window Manager, default themes, apps included, etc. Ubuntu looks suspicously like Debian, because under the hood that is what it is.Last edited by crokett; 01-21-2009, 06:29 AM.David
The chief cause of failure in this life is giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment.Comment
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That would be my recommendation for someone who wants to experiment with Linux: Install it on a spare computer. Better yet, install it on a spare computer and give it to your kids to use. Come back after a month and ask them to show you how to use it.
Linux has come a long way. I used to joke (waaaay back when) that "Linux is like DOS, but without the friendly user interface."
Oddly enough, going Pro at IT is what ruined Linux for me. Futzing with computers has lost all pleasure for me. I just want the thing to work. If Linux (or OSX or whatever) were the most popular OS I would use it and be happy. I honestly don't care, I just want it to work with all hardware and software and not make me think too much about it. Right now WinXP is the sweet spot (though Win2K is still wonderful on older PCs).
But, if you lie to tinker, installing and playing with Linux can be very entertaining, informative and maybe even useful.
Now to deal with Comcast because I made the mistake of upgrading to Digital cable and the %$%@^@#! DVR they sent won't tune in 1/2 the channels! Grrrrr.....Doug Kerfoot
"Sacrificial fence? Aren't they all?"
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KeyLlama.comComment
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A tongue-in-cheek rejoinder from a Microsoft fanboy who has been running Windows 7 since November:
Linux
1. Can do most things Windows can do except be run without an engineering degree
2. Can do a great many things that Windows cannot do, because computer users do not want to do them
3. Is free, just like a puppy is free
4. Comes by default with more software than you probably ever knew existed, 99% of which you will never use nor understand how to get rid of
5. Can recognize most hardware nowadays, so only one your video, audio, or network devices will crash, rather than all of them.
6. Can happily co-exist beside other operating systems. This is actually pretty true.
7. Is not subject to spyware and the vast majority of viruses. Because nobody uses it on the desktop so there's no point in writing Linux viruses
8. Does not require much use of the command line if you don't want to use it - Some, Grandma, but not much.
9. Offers a lot more flexibility and customization than other operating systems (if you want to recompile your kernel, write your own custom drivers, or hack into WOPR to play Global Thermonuclear War. Less handy for connecting your iPod.
10. Is extremely easy to install (easier than Windows in many cases, as long as those cases aren't the 90% of PCs that have Windows pre-installed)
11. Will teach you a lot about computers and how they work. Before you know it, you'll own both a cape and a lightsaber
12. Is not evil. As long as by "not evil" you mean "totally communist"
Take that, hippies!Comment
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What a great post! If that is original, I stand in awe...
.Doug Kerfoot
"Sacrificial fence? Aren't they all?"
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KeyLlama.comComment
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Dunno if you were putting us down here, or the hippies
!
We could create enough traffic on just this 'discussion' to warrant a whole new forum, but there already exist such forums, so we'll try and not get religious here
...
I have three personal computers at home. A Dell Dimension with Win XP, an iMac G4 ( the lamp style) with Panther and an IBM Thinkpad with Kubuntu. I spend equal time with all three in any given month. The LOML complains that she's the only one who has reason to complain, and wants to report me for bigamy
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That said, I cannot be accused of bias towards any one OS/platform. I also don't go for fanaddiction for personal computers. The best and least they can do is help us as tools. And for some needs, certain tools work better than others, and Linux helps in offering up options.
My brother-in-law used to call me in very frequently for help with his Vista machine for things like 'machine hung up' or 'I installed something, but cannot find where it is'. I realized he's only interested in his emails or the weather or some light browsing. I set him up on Kubuntu, and it's almost a year since I got an 'urgent' call from him. Enough said.It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- AristotleComment
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Okay, I'm interested in doing this, especially since I had a machine get "rootkitted" a couple of weeks ago. Downloaded Ubuntu 8.10 this morning. Right now, we are using LEAP w/WPA2 on our APs until I can get a better authentication scheme set up. So far, Ubuntu won't authenticate. Any suggestions?
Also, will Evolution work with Exchange 2k7?
My plan is if I get this working, I'll make a VM of my current windows box and then install Ubuntu onto it, the run VirtualBox or VMWare to access my Windows install when I need it."It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear."- Norm (from Cheers)
Eat beef-because the west wasn't won on salad.Comment
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Tounge in cheek, but replying anyway....
1. Brrzzt! Actually, for the 90% of users who just browse the web and check email, it can be run without a degree. Besides which, if you start with someone who knows nothing about PCs (like my in-laws) what is the difference between teaching them Windows or Linux? If Windows is so easy, why do I get an email or call about once a week from my FIL? I wish I'd just put Linux on their PC to
2. 90% of users don't. The other 10% do.
3. Actually it is free.
4. Uhmm... it is quite easy. Click System->Administration->Package Manager. Select what you don't want, then uninstall it. More or less same as Windows, except you can uninstall multiple packages at a time. And you don't need to reboot. And it actually cleans up the HDD.
5. I've done 3 installs in two weeks on 2 laptops and a desktop and everything works quite well. Including wireless. Linux also recognized the digital camera and both USB sticks I have. Plus the I/O to the USB sticks was MUCH faster in Linux.
6. What you said.
7. Who cares why? I only care that it is not affected by viruses.
8. My wife was using the spare laptop with Linux this weekend and not touching a command line.
9. I don't have an Ipod so can't test this.
10. Install is actually really easy. If you have Windows it recognizes this and sets your machine up for dual boot automagically. Windows just stomps all over the Linux loader.
11. See my answer to #8.
12. I have no idea what this means.
BTW, how do you like Windows 7? I've been meaning to download it but haven't had time.David
The chief cause of failure in this life is giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment.Comment
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Oh, sure, take a stick and stir up the you-know-what...
"That means fight where I come from."
"Then why don't we fight?"
"'Cause we ain't where I come from."
(hippie voice)
Stay away from Linux, man. Oh, sure, it looks like fun, and all the "cool kids" are doin' it, but that stuff'll mess with your mind, man.
(/hippie voice)
Your Mac fanboy,
g.Last edited by gsmittle; 01-26-2009, 12:51 PM.Smit
"Be excellent to each other."
Bill & TedComment
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