Labor unions - The good, the bad, and the ugly

[eccentrictinkerer]

[there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those that dont.]

Just hit me. You either mean that there is only (1) one type of people, or there are (01) two types of people. I taught binary math for 01 (two) years at a Junior College.

Your decimal point must be off!

01 Binary = Decimal 1
10 Binary = Decimal 2
11 Binary = Decimal 3
100 Binary = Decimal 4

I started at Univac in 1966 when we programmed only in hexadecimal (don't get me started).

[Texas splinter]

Yes, when working at The Boeing Company from '91 to '02, I belonged to SPEEA (Seattle Professional Engineering Employees Association) which is a white-collar union. I joined when I started at Boeing because the union health plan accepted exsisting conditions but the company plan had a one-year exception. Since my wife and I both had exsisting back problems, it made sense to me to join. The dues wren't much and, unlike the blue-collar unions, no one would say anything if I turn on or off a light switch. :~)
Things heated up around 1999 when the company, in a panic, gave the IAM (the union of the people on the shop floor, assembling the planes) everything they asked for on their contract, then told the professional unit that they couldn't afford to give us anything cause they gave all the money to the IAM.
Up untill that point, we had been strictly a company union, but had been talking to the C.I.O and they invited us to join up with them. They sent real organizers to talk to us and next thing you know - we were out on strike. We stayed out for about a month, then the company gave in on much of the demands and we came back to work.
Since then, the company has paid a LOT more attention to the SPEEA demands and requests.
It was all about fair treatment between the professional and technical units and the blue-collars on the factory floor.
Would I do it again? in a heart-beat. Would I join the IAM or UAW? Not on your life.
Previous to this experience a tBoeing, I had always been anti-union.

[burrellski]

Labor Union Issue NO ONE will talk about

I have a pretty strong opinion on this matter, but I am not going to comment. I'm pretty sure I can't keep politics out of it. I will tell everyone that there is a piece of legislation that will more than likely pass that will drastically change industry in the US.

Everyone should dig into the Employee Free Choice Act and find whatever unbiased info you can. Good Luck

It received zero media coverage in the campaign. If anyone needs an explanation of why this is a very, very bad idea, I'll give you my opinion off-line.

[smchange01]

Unions sure can be a mixed bag of ups and downs, But as the job market shifts heavily into the employers favor, one can expect to see a lot of employers taking advantage of the job markets tough conditions. paring benefits, wages, and generally expecting more of employees for less.
On the other side of the coin though in times of recession, many consumers are expecting more value from retailers, who unwilling to face a reduction in profit would love to pass that defecit onto their employees, and the manufacturers that supply their goods. These manufacturers also would like to stay in the black, so they follow suit and do the same to their employees and ultimately everyone gets a taste of the unstable economy.

I think when a labor union is involved companies have a harder time reducing compensation, it promotes more transparency of the reasoning behind a company reduction, and more equality in the level of "cuts" between the white, and blue collar workforce.

[there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those that dont.]

Just hit me. You either mean that there is only (1) one type of people, or there are (01) two types of people. I taught binary math for 01 (two) years at a Junior College.

[kbkreisler]

Unions sure can be a mixed bag of ups and downs, But as the job market shifts heavily into the employers favor, one can expect to see a lot of employers taking advantage of the job markets tough conditions. paring benefits, wages, and generally expecting more of employees for less.
On the other side of the coin though in times of recession, many consumers are expecting more value from retailers, who unwilling to face a reduction in profit would love to pass that defecit onto their employees, and the manufacturers that supply their goods. These manufacturers also would like to stay in the black, so they follow suit and do the same to their employees and ultimately everyone gets a taste of the unstable economy.

I think when a labor union is involved companies have a harder time reducing compensation, it promotes more transparency of the reasoning behind a company reduction, and more equality in the level of "cuts" between the white, and blue collar workforce.

[Richard in Smithville]

A.B.G., Steelworkers, and now Canadian Auto Workers. The first two shops I worked in, the union was "there" but was never really needed as we had great relations with the management. Then we got bought out and new management came with it. That's when the union kicked into high gear. If it wasn't for the union, the management would have walked all over us. When I got transferred to the latest shop, I went from Steelworkers to CAW but the overall management stayed the same. Once again the union is needed to keep this management from wreaking havoc with the work force. The lower end of management is ok, it's just middle and up.

[smchange01]

I was a union member back in '84. Worked for a company that made signalling devices for the railroad. We had about 20 techs and 60 "board stuffers". The union was CWA. Our company had a very good year and offered a 5% raise across the board. The tachs were making about $12.00/hr and the others were making about $6.00/hr. Both good wages for that time. The union said "NO." Our stewards were in the lower pay ranges and didn't like the techs getting 60 cents while tehy got 30 cents. After about a month of negotiation the union settled on 5 cents/hr for everyone.

The techs all protested and we somehow got into a different union. The really dumb thing was that the union leaders were happy because they kept the status quo with the board stuffers who magde up the majority of the group. The management later negotiated a $1.00 raise for the rechs after we switched unions.

Who lost? The board stuffers who lost 25 cents an hour so that there wouldn't be an increasing gap between them and the techs. By the way, I worked there for two more years and the management never offered the CWA members another percentage raise and they never got more that 5 cent per hour, while the techs were always offered and recieved 3-5% each year.

[ironhat]

I belonged to the Transport Workers Union in the '70's while working on Penn Central Railroad as a RR car mechanic and inspector. The union in our little shop was pretty innocuous. When someone filed a grievance with the shop steward they usually got a little lecture on how nice we had it and that it wasn't worth upsetting the General Foreman for what amounted to a pimple on a fly. No problems between us and management. It was in the cities where the power of that union was vested and a few dozen guys in the hills of PA rolling in the grease wasn't enough clout for them to be bothered. Personally, I thought that we were well paid for turning wrenches. I would have like to have had a roof over our heads, though.

[jackellis]

the level of attempted intimidation was unbelievable.

A friend of our works for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district in what should be a non-union, white collar job. Several years ago the union threatened to strike and it was made clear to him that he needed to stay home like everyone else.

One of my brothers (cancer victim) was a police officer and he used to be a big union man to the point I stopped talking with him about it. Over time that changed and by the end of his career, he disliked the union.

I think it's fair to say that union leaders are as human as corporate executives. they respond to incentives the same way, they have ambitions to be in leadership roles that pay well, and they succumb to the temptation of corruption in the same way.

I don't ever expect to be part of a union but I agree that doing away with the secret ballot for union elections is not going to be a good thing for workers because it will make them highly susceptible to intimidation.

[herb fellows]

Your first sentence is right on the money, Loring. Labor unions would never have come to be if management had been fair with employees. I can't imagine a bunch of guys sitting around saying 'Hey, let's create a union so we can screw the boss'. Their creation was a reaction, not an action.
Unfortunately, these days, many of the unions consider themselves as businesses and only do what it takes to preserve the status quo, the jobs of the union officials. It's a shame when it goes like that, it makes all of them look bad when in fact it's just enough of them doing enough damage to have the spotlight put on them.
Most recently, the long island RR in New York was revealed as just such a situation. 97% of all retirees went off the job with a disability, for which they got additional bucks! Truly disgusting. In my opinion, they should be criminally prosecuted, but that's not likely to happen.

[dkerfoot]

I have always considered the THREAT of a Union to be a positive thing. It helps keep the management honest and fair.

The reality of a union is something else. I am glad they exist and I'd say they have done more good than harm, but they have still done plenty of harm...

[just started]

.....snip..... They're going to end up killing their hosts.

Isn't that what parasites always do eventually?

When I got out of high school ('65) and got a job in a shop the union was trying to take over. No one working there wanted to be in a union and kept voting it down, but the union didn't care and the level of attempted intimidation was unbelievable. If the unions get the change they are after to do away with secret ballot for deciding if the union takes over then it won't be long before there won't be ANY non-union job anywhere.

[tung tied]

I was raised in suburban Detroit, worked on the Corvette brake line. Saw a lot of the same stuff noted above. The department was full of alcoholics, a heroin addict, and a Korean guy that couldn't speak English. One woman was caught bringing a handgun into the plant. Was fired, but the union got her back within two days.
Unemployment in Detroit area over 20%. Over 70% for minorities. The UAW workers loved it!! Got ~90% of their income for months doing nothing. They saw it as getting something back for the 10 - 15% of their weekly paycheck that went to union dues. Easy to get political here but I won't, 'cause I'm tung tied.

[RAFlorida]

IBEW in Kansas City, Mo.

That was way back in the early 70's. The first and only time with the union. Never again. The rank and file system was broke and upper management would not fix it. (broke as in no corrective measurements, grievances worked on, etc., not financially broke.) Corruption was wide spread. Generally the rank and file suffered from loss of contracts. At that time Missouri was a closed shop state, as it still may be. The company I worked for tried their best to keep customer cost down to a minimum but because of the union's control, it cost job losts. The next forty some years I worked with ANY non-union company only. Yes I know,we didn't have the high wages paid to us like our brothers in the union, but we had jobs year round. And we did have the other benifits such as insurance and other things most unions gave.

[LCHIEN]

...For unions to work well, it seems to me that union leaders have to be prepared to look out for the long-term health of the companies that employ their members as much as company managements need to be looking out for the long-term good of their workers. In other words, the relationships have to be a lot less adversarial and a lot more cooperative than they tend to be in the US, until, that is, the stuff hits the fan as it is now...Y'all have probably seen enough

I agree but the union leaders are old school and brought up to look out for Union #1. They will not easily give in to ensure the survival of thier employers. They're going to end up killing their hosts.