Bar Stool Economics

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  • RickD1
    Forum Newbie
    • Oct 2006
    • 57
    • Southern California
    • BT3100

    #1

    Bar Stool Economics

    An excellent tale of how the world works.

    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
    The fifth would pay $1.
    The sixth would pay $3.
    The seventh would pay $7.
    The eighth would pay $12.
    The ninth would pay $18.
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’
    They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

    And so:
    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
    The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving s).
    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

    Each of the six was better off than before And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
    ‘I only got a dollar out of the $20’, declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’
    ‘Yeah, that’s right’, exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’
    ‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’
    ‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’
    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
    The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.



    For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
    For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
    Last edited by RickD1; 10-30-2008, 01:54 PM.
  • cgallery
    Veteran Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 4503
    • Milwaukee, WI
    • BT3K

    #2
    That has floated around the Internet for a while. David R. Kamerschen denies having wrote it.

    Comment

    • JR
      The Full Monte
      • Feb 2004
      • 5636
      • Eugene, OR
      • BT3000

      #3
      The highest US income tax rate is <35%. The lowest is 6.66% (weill, it's zero if your taxable income is less than $5).

      JR
      JR

      Comment

      • germdoc
        Veteran Member
        • Nov 2003
        • 3567
        • Omaha, NE
        • BT3000--the gray ghost

        #4
        Almost makes me feel sympathy for the alphas in their bunkers:

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...103002085.html

        To defend a progressive income tax, which we have moved away from in the last 2 decades, perhaps we should go to the source of capitalist philosphy, Adam Smith: "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

        Or, as a certain well-known parable says, "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required."
        Last edited by germdoc; 10-30-2008, 04:55 PM.
        Jeff


        “Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing”--Voltaire

        Comment

        • cgallery
          Veteran Member
          • Sep 2004
          • 4503
          • Milwaukee, WI
          • BT3K

          #5
          In 2006, the top 1% of earners paid roughly 40% of taxes.

          I've also included two charts that demonstrate what happened to the tax rates from 2000 to 2008.

          BTW, I'm not taking sides in this fight. But I will say that I think the public is mostly misinformed about how much the wealthy have historically paid in taxes, compared to today.

          "As for federal income taxes, between 2000 and 2006, the share paid by the top 10 percent grew by about 3.5 percentage points, the share paid by the top 5 percent grew by roughly 3.7 percentage points, and the share paid by the top 1 percent grew by around 2.5 percentage points, according to the IRS."*

          *http://www.american.com/archive/2008...ive-tax-system
          Attached Files
          Last edited by cgallery; 10-30-2008, 03:38 PM.

          Comment

          • Kristofor
            Veteran Member
            • Jul 2004
            • 1331
            • Twin Cities, MN
            • Jet JTAS10 Cabinet Saw

            #6
            Originally posted by JR
            The highest US income tax rate is <35%. The lowest is 6.66% (weill, it's zero if your taxable income is less than $5).

            JR
            Then around here we add
            + 7% for FICA (if you're below the cap)
            +6-8% for state taxes (marginal)
            +6.5+% sales tax (but not on most food/clothing here in MN)
            + 5-10%ish on average for property taxes if you own a home, call it about that toward your rent if that's your game
            + 3-10%ish more for miscleanous taxes on such luxuries as water, electric, natural gas, gasoline, sanitation removal, license tabs, etc.

            But there's also savings for things like morgage interest, dependent care savings accounts, medical spending, green/energy efficiency purchases, school tuition, etc. if you make enough to be able to take advantage of them.

            Progressive income tax, regressive gas/sales taxes, mix and match on the others and it all comes out a muddled mess with all sides screaming that they've been wronged. And all genuinely feeling what they believe is "right".

            -

            Comment

            • herb fellows
              Veteran Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 1867
              • New York City
              • bt3100

              #7
              Unfortunately, in the real world, the tenth man was supposed to pay the most, but through a series of rules written by his friends who were in charge of who paid what, he ended up with enough write offs that he actually paid less than the 7th man. Because his friends who were in charge were so nice to him, he gave them a big fat donation when they needed to run for office again.
              Of course, when time came again to decide who paid how much, the guys who wer re-elected would have been remiss if they didn't take care of their friends who had helped them regain office. And so the story goes.

              There are 2 sides to every coin.
              Last edited by herb fellows; 10-30-2008, 03:55 PM.
              You don't need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice.

              Comment

              • Black wallnut
                cycling to health
                • Jan 2003
                • 5513
                • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
                • BT3k 1999

                #8
                Let's be real careful here folks! This topic is bordering on political and then Jeff has to add an element of religion. Tax policy discussions in the past have become locked topics. If it comes to that this topic will be removed.
                Last edited by Black wallnut; 10-30-2008, 05:01 PM.
                Donate to my Tour de Cure


                marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

                Head servant of the forum

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                Comment

                • shoottx
                  Veteran Member
                  • May 2008
                  • 1240
                  • Plano, Texas
                  • BT3000

                  #9
                  Black wallnut Lets be real careful here folks! This topic is bordering on political and then Jeff has to add an element of religion. Tax policy discussions in the past have become locked topics. If it comes to that this topic will be removed.


                  Geez and nobody even got to the flat tax or the fair tax proposals yet.
                  Often in error - Never in doubt

                  Mike

                  Comment

                  • JR
                    The Full Monte
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 5636
                    • Eugene, OR
                    • BT3000

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kristofor
                    Progressive income tax, regressive gas/sales taxes, mix and match on the others and it all comes out a muddled mess with all sides screaming that they've been wronged. And all genuinely feeling what they believe is "right".
                    Brother, ain't that the truth!
                    JR

                    Comment

                    • JR
                      The Full Monte
                      • Feb 2004
                      • 5636
                      • Eugene, OR
                      • BT3000

                      #11
                      Originally posted by cgallery
                      In 2006, the top 1% of earners paid roughly 40% of taxes.
                      That statistic is a little hard to verify, but seems to be accurate enough.

                      The IRS has a pretty good breakdown here for 2006 http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/06in11si.xls

                      You can spin the data a number ways. Here's one.
                      • Those with taxable income over $500K are paid 26.1% of the total earnings and pay 35.9% of the taxes
                      • Those with taxable income between $100k and $500K are paid 35% of the total earnings and pay 37.7% of the taxes
                      • Those with taxable income below $100k are paid 38.3% of the total earnings and pay 26.1% of the taxes
                      JR
                      JR

                      Comment

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