Fear Or Reward?

[BobSch]

[QUOTE=shoottx;358222]

Nawww! That is only two of the reasons dreamed up by a philosopher who never met a red-neck in the real world.

1. Some is based on shear hard headedness i.e. I made up my mind - I'm gonna do it because I just gotta do it. (Kids, grown up kids and red-necks!)


In Texas that translates to "Hold my beer and watch this."

Isn't this just a version of fear/reward? "I'm gonna feel so good when I can show everyone I can do it" vs. "I don't want anyone to think I can't do it." (With everyone including yourself.)

[leehljp]

[QUOTE=BobSch;358311]

Isn't this just a version of fear/reward? "I'm gonna feel so good when I can show everyone I can do it" vs. "I don't want anyone to think I can't do it." (With everyone including yourself.)

Personally, as an introverted red neck, No, I never said "I am going to feel so good when I show everyone that I can do it". I learned to fly RC planes by myself because I didn't want anyone watching me. In my senior HS year, I was voted the MVP and batted .500+. I did the worst when relatives or family came to watch me. I loved baseball but I hated being watched. I hated accolades too.

I generally am not motivated by reward (monetary, things, etc.), compliments or praise (as a form of reward in the loosest sense). Both LOML and my oldest daughter are motivated by praise and compliments. When I hear praise or compliments coming, I run or at the least avoid the request that follows.

About 30 years ago, I heard a talk (message) about successful parents. A successful parent is one who can lovingly raise his/her own daughter to love someone else more than she will lover her own dad. I feel loved by my daughters because my love for them is not possessive, and not expecting anything in return, which frees them up to love even more. No reward expected here and no fear in it either.

All of this is to say that to me, I cannot view all things as being motivated in terms of a "reward" or "fear" world; some things ARE motivated by pure love in the agape sense - without the expectation of ANYthing in return. I was trying to put a humorous spin on the issue when I used the red neck examples.

OnLine Dictionary definition of "Reward":
1. a sum of money offered for the detection or capture of a criminal, the recovery of lost or stolen property, etc.
2. something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc.
–verb (used with object)
3. to recompense or requite (a person or animal) for service, merit, achievement, etc.
4. to make return for or requite (service, merit, etc.); recompense.

By stating that everyone's "motivation" falls into one of two camps (words), the meaning of "reward" will obviously change into a philosophical term, of which there will probably not be a single standard, accord or consensus on definitions - as each will define it ("reward") loosely to follow his or her own individual value system. And that will be outside the parameters of standard dictionary usage.

Both "Reward" and "Fear" are values that motivate, or are used to motivate - but they are not the only two values in this world by which people take action.

[cabinetman]

By stating that everyone's "motivation" falls into one of two camps (words), the meaning of "reward" will obviously change into a philosophical term, of which there will probably not be a single standard, accord or consensus on definitions - as each will define it ("reward") loosely to follow his or her own individual value system. And that will be outside the parameters of standard dictionary usage.

Both "Reward" and "Fear" are values that motivate, or are used to motivate - but they are not the only two values in this world by which people take action.

I understand your explanation, and agree that many words can have philosophical meanings. As I think about basic motivations, I keep finding the ability in some way that they fit into either "fear" or "reward". My dogs agree with me.
.

[ironhat]

Tony Robins has made millions with the presumtion that we are more motvated by fear than reward. A fire-and-brimstone preacher would tend to agree.

[leehljp]

I understand your explanation, and agree that many words can have philosophical meanings. As I think about basic motivations, I keep finding the ability in some way that they fit into either "fear" or "reward". My dogs agree with me.
.

I agree with that about dogs, . . . and greedy people. But be careful about trying to "fit in some way" because that has just enough truth to make it seem relevant but just enough distortion to not be totally true. 99.9% truth and .1% lie is still a lie. By fitting it in as in shoe horning it in, that will bringing it into the philosophical definition conundrum - which is not necessarily true.

Do you ever do something good for someone and intentionally not let them know that you did it? Some people do. You do it for them because of who you are (the characteristic of who you are). You will get not reward and might even get criticized in some cases.

Kind of like the man who opened the door for a woman and she told him in no uncertain terms that she was a liberated woman and she didn't need any help in opening doors. To which he replied, "I didn't open it because you are a woman, but because that is what gentlemen do." In other words, that is who he is, not to get rewards or compliments, purely to help others with no reward expected.

There is no thinking going on inside this kind of person's head that says "Why am I doing this? Am I trying to get something by doing this? What will I gain? What if I were criticized, would I stop?"

Nobody in his right mind goes around thinking like that when he does an act of kindness out of pure instinct.


True Politeness, humbleness and love do not seek its own (or others) rewards.

There are a few unselfish gentlemen and women left in this world and some are on this forum! Don't try to rationalize that the whole world is motivated by reward or fear or greed or selfishness. There are a few idealists left, so let us live in what is left of our fantasy world and let us teach our children and grandchildren the same.

[cabinetman]

I agree with that about dogs, . . . and greedy people.

Do you ever do something good for someone and intentionally not let them know that you did it? Some people do. You do it for them because of who you are (the characteristic of who you are).


Kind of like the man who opened the door for a woman and she told him in no uncertain terms that she was a liberated woman and she didn't need any help in opening doors. To which he replied, "I didn't open it because you are a woman, but because that is what gentlemen do." In other words, his character is - that is who he is, not to get rewards or compliments.

The actual motivation may not be overt, but in the case you cited may be an unintentional "personal reward", which would follow "who he is". IOW, he does it not for the reward by others, but for what he feels himself.
.

[leehljp]

Tony Robins has made millions with the presumtion that we are more motvated by fear than reward. A fire-and-brimstone preacher would tend to agree.

Yes, but the key here is that it was suggested that ALL motivations are from fear or reward. That I cannot agree with.

There are enough gullible people to part with their money going after TR's philosophies to make him millions, but that doesn't make make fear and reward the ONLY two absolutes as far as motivation values go.

Not EVERYTHING is motivated by fear or reward, but in the world we live in today, most actions can be traced to that, but not all.

For a "fear" question: IF your life depended upon your answer to the question - "ARE Reward and Fear the only two foundational motivations in this world?" Would you stake your life on a "yes" answer?

[leehljp]

The actual motivation may not be overt, but in the case you cited may be an unintentional "personal reward", which would follow "who he is". IOW, he does it not for the reward by others, but for what he feels himself.
.

I don't feel anything when I open the door for a lady, I do it often without thinking. I know others who do the same thing. I once asked a fellow, who was that lady you opened the door for. His answer, "What lady?" To be honest, the same has been asked of me on several occasions. You don't seem to get that some actions of kindness are "none thinking" acts. Some acts are totally in love and respect, without expecting anything in return. The fact is maybe one does derive some good feeling for it, but the motivation does not have to be from the good feeling, from which you are trying to attribute it.

What about the guy in a bunker when a grenade is thrown in - in an instant, he dives over it to keep others from dying. He had no time to think of his reward, his heroism. It was a pure instantaneous action and reaction to thought for others with nothing but death for himself. No time for reward, no time for thought, no time for a fuzzy warm feeling for an act of heroism.

Sorry, that may not fit your description. Others have been known to die for others without asking a single thing in return. Not everything can be rationalized into two compartments.

What are you searching for?

Why do you dismiss "love" as a motivation? Why do you dismiss "respect" as a motivation? In some circles, those are far more powerful than fear or reward.
If you do something for (out of) love, you may "get" a reward. BUT it is a lie to say that the "reward" was the motivating factor!
If you (or at least for me) do something out of respect, I may get a reward, but it is a lie to say that I was motivated by the "reward".


REWARD OR NOT:
IF I am motivated by a reward or good feeling, then logic dictates that I will stop when I am no longer rewarded, right? What If I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling but continue to do the action? (That might be called stupidity by some in todays world.) But there are a lot of stupid people around including a lot of rednecks!

(Past midnight here and I have a full day tomorrow - or I would write all night.)

[BobSch]

I wonder if we're getting hung up on definitions. If you define "reward" as anything that makes you feel good and "fear" as something that gives you an uneasy feeling, then yes, fear and reward cover everything except those things that are done from sheer reflex.

[ironhat]

Yes, but the key here is that it was suggested that ALL motivations are from fear or reward. That I cannot agree with.

There are enough gullible people to part with their money going after TR's philosophies to make him millions, but that doesn't make make fear and reward the ONLY two absolutes as far as motivation values go.

Not EVERYTHING is motivated by fear or reward, but in the world we live in today, most actions can be traced to that, but not all.

For a "fear" question: IF your life depended upon your answer to the question - "ARE Reward and Fear the only two foundational motivations in this world?" Would you stake your life on a "yes" answer?

I agree with you, Hank. I don't think that I applied sufficient sarcasm to my initial statement about TR. He probably does believe it and he sells it and his technique quite well. Regarding the example of holding doors for others, I have actually been reflecting on that and a similar gesture for quite awhile. Every morning I stop in at the local 'quick stop' for a decaf. The lot is *packed* with people gassing up or stopping for a breakfast biscuit. If I had an overhead picture of the lot I have always though that it would look like a ballet of cars allowing a pass by or someone threading the needle between the pumps. Exiting the store people holding the door as they exit or enter is actually the order of the day. It's like there is a collective effort from a harried crowd of people who are sharing the same start-of-the-day and offering their efforts to make it just a little easier. And, you know, it does. I say that because when you encounter a person who is obviously detached - be it they are talking on the phone or they are consumed with their appearance or any of a hundred ways - you feel a bit insulted when they exit ahead of you and they don't hold the door. Small things *do* matter. The motivation could be self-satisfaction which, arguably, could be called reward' because they feel good about it in some way. But, as you said, Hank, it could be that some folks are just idealists who are trying to make a better world. That would be a higher motivation than 'reward' for those people.