Dust Explosions

[kgworkman]

You Can't Fix Stupid.

I think its sad that in so many ways we make it the responsibility of the government to ensure our personal safety. Why is it their job to tell us how to be safe? The govenment will never do a better job of ensuring safety than an individual can, and it always comes at a higher price.

Reminds me of recent lending issues as well... Help I borrowed more than I can pay! The government (i.e. everyone else) should bail me out.

[cabinetman]

Actually your complete original post shows your 'suggestion' on preventing "dust fire and explosions" by cleaning all those out of the way dusty spots. Not just an OSHA question.

Hopefully, this thread won't turn into THIS KIND OF DAY.

The issue of employees notifying OSHA begs the question of how many are willing to "snitch" on their employer. Many of the disasters happened in plants that were large employers in the area, and in some circumstances are the dominant job source. Sure, that would help the understaffed OSHA investigative leg. Documented proof of informing management of the hazards might prove to be a safe out, but it may lead to planning on joining the Witness Protection Program.

If I was one of those employees, and I realized that my life was in danger, I would consider moving on to a safer job. Maybe some of those employees couldn't afford to do that, and suffered the consequences.

This also begs the question of those employers that purposely violate safety regulations, like sawblade guards. Of all the cabinet shops or woodworking shops I've been in, not one uses a guard. Is it safe? No it isn't. One shop in particular I remember had a guard over the blade that was connected to a rod that could be raised and lowered from the ceiling. It was a large shop, with an entry only through a front office door. I would guess that upon an inspectors arrival, an undercounter button was pressed and "voila", down comes the guard.

This was well put:

I think its sad that in so many ways we make it the responsibility of the government to ensure our personal safety. Why is it their job to tell us how to be safe? The govenment will never do a better job of ensuring safety than an individual can, and it always comes at a higher price.

Reminds me of recent lending issues as well... Help I borrowed more than I can pay! The government (i.e. everyone else) should bail me out.

As in large factories and plants, the individual woodworker, or hobbyist (who is not usually subject to OSHA's inspections) has to be aware of ALL the ramifications and safety issues in what they do. Negativity and challenges may cause doubts that are devastating. Hopefully, forums like this can be very informative.
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[Tom Slick]

The intent of this post was to open for comment the premise brought out in the TV segment about OSHA's responsibility (or lack of) in the tragedies of those factories that experienced explosions and fires.

It has always bugged me that most places view OSHA compliance as their goal, not as their benchmark for improvement. They view OSHA as the enemy, not as a partner. Becoming adversarial gets you no where. This actually goes for any standards compliance. Although OSHA has some BS rules I consider them to be the minimum requirement that can many times be exceeded with benefits to the workforce and production.

[Russianwolf]

Negativity and challenges may cause doubts that are devastating. Hopefully, forums like this can be very informative.
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Information is wonderful, but Information without challenges can easily lead to misinformation being taught as gospel.

I challenge information when it has no evidentiary support. Heck, If they had listened to my challenges, we wouldn't have gone into Iraq.

[Black wallnut]

I believe an employer should be aware of the hazards of his business and take extreme measures to provide a safe workplace, OSHA or no OSHA.

Mike I'll admit to not watching the show. I think you got this about half right. Employer's do have a duty to provide a safe workplace. I think the standard is REASONABLE not extreme. OSHA requires employers to do some things that are just silly. Many times whenever you bring in a government inspector you get one person's opinions rather than a black and white law. I've seen it plenty when I was employed in the farm chemical industry. An industry by the way that due to the nature of some of the workplace hazards had a good working relationship with OSHA. We invited the inspectors in to tell us how we could improve. We'd make the needed changes and then ask them back. Each visit they brought more ways that we could make our workplace safer. Some of the things we had to do did not actually do anything to enhance safety other than protecting stupid people from themselves.

Dust explosions require a very narrow range of ideal conditions to exist for them to occur. This forum's target audience is one of hobby woodworkers. You seem to be advocating hobby woodworkers to pay more attention to their housekeeping because of a segment you saw about dust explosions that have occured at an industrial level. The fire danger aside settled dust is not that dangerous. It surely is not an explosion hazard. Disturbing the dust in an effort to clean it will likely make some of it airborne which could be a hazard to ones lungs. The likelyhood of a dust explosion in a hobby shop is so remote and the evidence of it ever occuring so hard to find that I must agree with Russianwolf.

To ask for response about the roll of government and their blame for dust explosions that have occurred seems pointless. It can quickly become a slippery slope headed to yet another locked political topic.

[cabinetman]

Mike I'll admit to not watching the show. I think you got this about half right. Employer's do have a duty to provide a safe workplace. I think the standard is REASONABLE not extreme.

This thread was not intended to be political. In order to understand the tone of it I'll post the TV segment again - you can view it HERE.
It might be worthwhile seeing the segment to fully understand what this thread is all about.

As far as what is reasonable and what is extreme, maybe those two words should be up for discussion. When people die, I consider that extreme. I can't visualize being an employer and talking to a loved one of someone who died due to a hazardous workplace and telling them that our safety precautions were "reasonable". That just doesn't cut it in my book.

Dust explosions require a very narrow range of ideal conditions to exist for them to occur. This forum's target audience is one of hobby woodworkers. You seem to be advocating hobby woodworkers to pay more attention to their housekeeping because of a segment you saw about dust explosions that have occured at an industrial level.

That's exactly what I'm advocating. Some things we take for granted. I don't believe there's any redundancy in reminders to maintaining a safe workplace or precautionary measures.

The fire danger aside settled dust is not that dangerous. It surely is not an explosion hazard. Disturbing the dust in an effort to clean it will likely make some of it airborne which could be a hazard to ones lungs. The likelyhood of a dust explosion in a hobby shop is so remote and the evidence of it ever occuring so hard to find that I must agree with Russianwolf.

With loved ones on the premises, is this the probability you want to test? I don't.
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[leehljp]

Explosions/fire hazards that I have read about in the past 10 years are:

1. using a heavy PVC (or similar) pipe as air lines with an air compressor.
2. grinders - not cleaning the area after using. Aluminum dust/particles and steel/dust particles mix in a dust to create an extreme fire hazard.
3. Dust explosions in DC units under weird circumstances.

I used to have book marks, a long time ago, to a steel/aluminum fire scene and a bookmark to a PVC pipe explosion. I did a search a few months ago and could not find either of those two sites or related articles any more. I bookmarked those somewhere around '98 - 2002.

[cabinetman]

Explosions/fire hazards that I have read about in the past 10 years are:

1. using a heavy PVC (or similar) pipe as air lines with an air compressor.
2. grinders - not cleaning the area after using. Aluminum dust/particles and steel/dust particles mix in a dust to create an extreme fire hazard.
3. Dust explosions in DC units under weird circumstances.

I used to have book marks, a long time ago, to a steel/aluminum fire scene and a bookmark to a PVC pipe explosion. I did a search a few months ago and could not find either of those two sites or related articles any more. I bookmarked those somewhere around '98 - 2002.

Hank

Could this be the one about PVC?
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[Black wallnut]

OK Mike i have since viewed the segment. First lets look at the numbers... "Since 1980....350 such dust explosions...." yadda yadda yadda "30,000 such factories" yadda yadda yadda. So we are expected to believe that a monthly occurrence when averaged out in a near 30 year time period of such proportions as a dozen killed each event. I'm thinking that CBS is once again either overstating the facts or clouding the real facts to make the story more relevant.

Many questions that simply were not answered by those interviewed, or were their answers edited out.

At close to the 11 minute mark the political spin gets said. "The present administration does not care......"

So let's see the real numbers. GW Bush has been president since 2000, but lets blame his administration for the past 28 years. Why not give us the real numbers of how many of these explosions have happened since 2000 but only if the object of the segment is to toss rocks at our current president. If that is not a central theme then leave it out and give us the numbers of how many have happened since the problem has become widely known. Wait there is more only an insignificant percent of OSHA has been trained to find these hazards. I wonder if the inspectors that performed inspections days or weeks before a few of these explosions were trained.

The sad fact, and this I'm pretty certain of, is that the vast majority of workplace injuries are slip, trip, and fall. I'll hazard a guess that automobile accidents in company vehicles has killed more workers by a long shot since 1980 than dust explosions. Even since the grain storage industry has been made aware of explosive dust dangers there have been grain silo explosions. These are called accidents. Accidents do happen. No amount of awareness or mitigation is going to prevent all accidents.

The OSHA boss did say that we already have a federal standard for housekeeping. He also said that if only workplaces would comply with existing laws there would not be a problem. It is impossible to inspect every plant and workplace every year. Even if it was I'm betting that an explosion in some places can happen with less than a years worth of dust accumulation and the other required environmental occurrences.

With loved ones on the premises, is this the probability you want to test? I don't.

We all make daily choices that could impact our family for the rest of their lives. Many people are hurt falling down stairs every year and yet I'm not willing to live in a step free house. Auto accidents are still the cause of the most deaths of children every year; my kids still ride in cars and on a school bus. Both of these causes are far more likely than a dust explosion in my shop, which is detached BTW, even if I do no cleaning out there. I heat my shop with a wood stove so maybe I'm really playing with fire. I could say more but then I would breach both politics and religion.

[leehljp]

Hank

Could this be the one about PVC?
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The one link that I had were actual photos of a shop wall with a hole in it when the pipe burst.

[mineengineer]

But on to OSHA. How many inspectors does OSHA employ? How many factories, mines, etc. are there in the country? Kinda hard for to visit every facility that may need inspecting.

OSHA doesnt inspect mines, MSHA does and it has to inspect all underground mines 4 times a year and all surface mines/prep plants twice a year, and they do.

[Russianwolf]

OSHA doesnt inspect mines, MSHA does and it has to inspect all underground mines 4 times a year and all surface mines/prep plants twice a year, and they do.

SEE, I don't know EVERYTHING!

I have to remind my wife of that at times too.

Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have known.

[LinuxRandal]

As far as what is reasonable and what is extreme, maybe those two words should be up for discussion. When people die, I consider that extreme. I can't visualize being an employer and talking to a loved one of someone who died due to a hazardous workplace and telling them that our safety precautions were "reasonable". That just doesn't cut it in my book.

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In my industry at least....
"Reasonable", is a defense. It is all about the law and legalites basically. Reasonable as a defense, will NOT limit your actual damages (death/dismemberment/medical), but CAN limit your punitive damages. This is saying that one was trying to be aware, and follow all the legal (court proven basically) safety guidelines setout for them, yet still doesn't mean you can't be put out of business by the costs of a lawsuit.
We were supposed to receive some training from the state. I had a LIST of questions for them. There is the obvious, that I am aware/can look out for, but I also know about non obvious, but NOT the proper way of how to spot (not getting into specifics).
As for training, the lack of it, becomes a defense as well.
If you do something wrong, but your inspector doesn't know it (not trained), thenyou get sued, you have a defense. You try to get your legal paid for from them, they have a defense (if they haven't received training yet), to try to limit your claims against them. AKA all about passing the buck, since everyone seems to look to try to get out of responsibilty these days.


Or...... I am NOT responsible for my opinions or my above types statements.