discouraged

[dkhoward]

I am mostly retired, but work about 20 hours a week as oyr church's financial director. Part of my dutied include facility management and risk management. I have already had three calls from congregation members this morning and a chat with the Senior Pastor about whether we need to consider putting armed security in the building when we have events and during worship services on Sunday. To be honest, this depresses me.

We are not a high profile church nor are we a "megachurch" by any stretch of the imagination. On the other hand, we are located across the street from the university campus in a neighborhood that has seen better days. We get our fair share of transients, street people and the homeless.

I am just concerned with how welcoming a church we would seem with armed security personnel stationed around the church every time we had a gathering, worship or fellowship. I guess the recent incidents have many of our members spooked.

I am licensed to carry concealed, but the thought of toting my S&W under my suit coat to church and sitting in worship just doesn't sound to holy to me. I am struggling with a real conundrum of doing what makes sense and doing what feels right.

ok, Im done venting and ranting. I'll go back to work now.

Dennis

[Uncle Cracker]

I think you (or your parishioners) are overreacting. It's natural, and it will pass. Churches were not intended for this sort of thing, and if you think about it, the last thing anybody needs is a shootout, with innocents caught in the crossfire. Leave yourselves in His hands.

[nothing]

It is depressing that armed security has to be considered, but It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Why not have them carried concealed. I'm sure you have some LEO's in your congregation, why not ask if they can assist in providing security. They could carry concealed and not necessarily wear a uniform. Most probably carry everywhere already.

I have a CCW as well, I imagine Texas and MS are very similar as far as gun culture goes. I don't carry in my church, but that is because it is prohibited by state law. I do know of at least one priest that does carry to mass although I don't know if he carries while saying mass. I don't think I'm comfortable with carrying inside the Sanctuary, I don't see a problem anywhere else in the church.

About 15 years ago a guy in my church who ran the local stewpot was murdered while the kitchen was open. I don't know if armed security would have made a difference, but you just never really know until it happens.

[SARGE..g-47]

Ditto what Uncle Cracker said but.... most of the churches in the Atlanta area that can afford it hire off-duty police officers to at least patrol the parkiing lot during services and watch as people go to and from their vehicles upon arriving and leaving.

The bad guys know that you go inside and will not be out till a given time during the services. That makes the parking lots a target for car theft and for quick hit and run purse snatchers.. robbery (as who would suspect a church goer to be armed), etc.

So... even though the thought sounds terrible, so is reality in the way the world turns anymore. When I was growing up in the 50's-60's, we didn't bother to even lock the door. What is the first thing you do now after you enter the house in most cases?

[nothing]

http://origin.denverpost.com/news/ci_7682958

To paraphrase, 2 girls 16 and 18 years old were murdered in the parking lot, the killer also wounded three others and then headed into the church. He was promptly shot and killed by a woman volunteering as security with a CCW.



I don't think the OP is as worried about petty crime, burglaries, stolen cars etc as he is about violent crime. I would be careful that volunteers have training needed to protect church members and not just themselves. There is a huge difference. Note the woman mentioned above has a LEO background.

[Uncle Cracker]

Exactly! Having a CCW does not mean a person has the skill, training or decision-making capacity to accomplish anything beyond shooting themselves or the innocent. I got one with 2 hours classroom and 15 minutes range time. Pathetic. Off-duty or retired LE is a different thing. I still think it should be kept outside, lest people forget why they are in church in the first place.

[cabinetman]

This is a tough call. It's sad that this even has to be discussed. My thinking is that the church goers may have a feeling of relief and safety to see uniformed LEO's or even rent-a-cops outside during their attendance. It would also be a deterrent to someone contemplating something criminal. And, OTOH, there is always the inevitable, no matter what.
.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Exactly! Having a CCW does not mean a person has the skill, training or decision-making capacity to accomplish anything beyond shooting themselves or the innocent. I got one with 2 hours classroom and 15 minutes range time. Pathetic. Off-duty or retired LE is a different thing. I still think it should be kept outside, lest people forget why they are in church in the first place.

Heck that is a Masters degree compared to PA. There is nothing required to have a CCW other than $25 application fee and ok by local sheriffs department. No classes, no range time . . .nothing.

I agree with what Cracker is saying about the over reaction as well. This is a very isolated incident.

What is amazing to me is that they happened to have a security person who took care of the matter! Saved a lot of lives.

I would have no problem carrying my gun into a church for the protection of the friends, family and loved ones.

[Ed62]

I had to reply to this one. It's a sad time when we even have to consider something like this. If you think of how many churches there are in the U.S., and how many have had to deal with something actually happening, you'll find that the chances of it happening in your own church are practically nil. I don't think security is appropriate at this time. For those places where it does happen, it's a nightmare. I think the jitters will pass soon for those parishoners having difficulty with this.

Ed

[jovani]

depressed

I hear your concerns. I was once attack in the church gymn by a drug addict, who was trying to force young people to give him money. We are located in a violent city and are trying to make a difference by reaching the young kids.

Recently a couple from our church ( college professors) went to Korea to teach for one year. They were telling us that children there take the bus and subway to school. Anyone could walk at any time without fear of becoming victims of crimes.

I remenber not long ago, when people and children could walk the streets of American cities and towns feeling safe. Today, it only takes seconds for a child to dissapear or adults becoming victims of crimes. It is indeed depressing to see our country become so violent.

I suggest a call to all of the decent people out there, to get involved in schools, community organizations, houses of worship that are reaching out and attend city council meetings and demand that the elected officials make crime prevention #1 priority.

[Uncle Cracker]

I must re-emphasize my contention that church services are no place for a bunch of gun-toting, trigger-happy paranoids. This kind of thing is gonna create more problems than it's gonna solve. I am a dedicated supporter of self-protection and heightened caution, but vigilantism is not the answer, particularly in a house of God. One cannot hope to overcome every crackpot with an axe to grind, so let's at least keep our dignity, and not sink to their level.

[Ed62]

Well said.

Ed

[chopnhack]

I agree with some of the previous replies that getting LEO from the congregation to help and perhaps some to alternate doing sweeps of the grounds. Sounds like a very good way to deter problems and keep an eye out for suspicious activity. Indeed these are sad times.

[Hellrazor]

Main Entry:
para·noia
Pronunciation:
\ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
Date:
circa 1811
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

[dkerfoot]

I was thrilled to hear that LEO was on hand to dispatch the bad guy, but the folks who are very concerned about this have spiritual issues IMO. What are the odds of being shot while in church? I think they should talk to a pastor about their spirit of fear.

My oldest son attended Youth With A Mission (YWAM) in a different city. It is very sad to see this kind of thing happen, but there is no reason to over react.