Critiquing others woodworking projects

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Are critiques a welcomed learning tools or poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Some are offended and some not. I find it hard to critique others when I sometimes know a gentle nudge here and there may offer an improvement. For me it is easer to say “well done” or “nice job” or something along those lines when if fact I’m not really telling the truth. A critique may be especially hard for a recipient who has spent a great deal of time and effort into a project only to have the weaker areas pointed out. In the long run don’t we all learn from our mistakes, even if they are pointed out by others? Can’t critiques be given in such a manner that they are not offensive? On some forums they are not welcome at all, on others they are offered only if the poster has requested one.

How do you deal with this touchy subject?

Brian

[crokett]

If it truly is a good job then I say so. If it has obvious flaws I generally don't reply unless the poster asks for it. When I started woodworking, early on most of my project posts included a request for comments (positive and negative). That is how I learned. However I'd imagine that most people are like me and if it is truly terrible we probably aren't going to show it to the world anyway.

[gsmittle]

Are critiques a welcomed learning tools or poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Some are offended and some not. I find it hard to critique others when I sometimes know a gentle nudge here and there may offer an improvement. For me it is easer to say “well done” or “nice job” or something along those lines when if fact I’m not really telling the truth. A critique may be especially hard for a recipient who has spent a great deal of time and effort into a project only to have the weaker areas pointed out. In the long run don’t we all learn from our mistakes, even if they are pointed out by others? Can’t critiques be given in such a manner that they are not offensive? On some forums they are not welcome at all, on others they are offered only if the poster has requested one.

How do you deal with this touchy subject?

Brian

I do this all day, every day with teenage actors, not woodworkers. I find that the "sandwich" technique works well: put the critique between two positive comments. Also, my students know that I won't give false praise, nor will I bash their self-esteem.

Personally, I try to phrase critiques as positively as possible. There's a world of difference between saying "You need to work more on your lines," and "Don't you have your lines memorized yet?" For woodworking, I imagine that most of us are well aware of our problems. What I personally would welcome is ways to overcome the problems the next time I have a similar project.

Sometimes I can read all I want about a technique (especially finishing) but it makes no sense until I actually try it. Sometimes I think of a better method just after I finish a project.

What doesn't impress me is the posters who will say something like, "If you were born with any sense at all, you would know that using SuperExpensiveWonderFinish and the UltraMegaJig-O-Matic that I can afford and you can't would make your project orders of magnatude better. How dare you post your sad work on this most hallowed of woodworking boards? Honestly, there should be some sort of entrance exam....yada yada yada..." You know the type. Probably call themselves artists...

In summary, I welcome critiques, but I prefer them constructive. Anybody can say "you suck."

g.

[Ed62]

Good thread. I don't consider myself a polished woodworker, by any means. If I should post something, telling (or showing) how I made a particular piece (which I rarely do), and I received critique on it, I would welcome it. Maybe next time I could refine my technique to make a piece better, make it easier, faster, or safer than I did last time around. For me, it's all about learning.

But there are folks who get crushed by criticism, even if it's constructive. I think you'll find this to be true in every walk of life. I won't give constructive critisism unless it's asked for, or I see a safety issue. But I'm lucky because most of the time I don't consider myself qualified to say much. Safety is a different story. If I spot something, I'll let it be known.

edit: gsmittle and I posted about the same time. I couldn't agree more that constructive criticism should be given in a positive light. That makes a big difference.

Ed

[final_t]

If someone is requesting a critique of their work, then I would have no problem (just don't be a jerk about it). I've yet to see any work on here that I felt needed it - I usually go "cool, how did you do xyz"?

Also agree with how the critique is given, and the suggestion on how to do it.

[linear]

My position is probably a little unusual. I am of the opinion that "good job" is not instructive, so I'd rather get a candid, constructive critique (true of woodworking projects and all my other pursuits) in order to better advance my skill. Hanging out with your betters is a superb way to advance.

I tend to hand out encouragement only in public venues, and reserve critiques for private channels.

[Stan]

Agree with all that has been said above, I think the keyword would be constructive critiques while staying away from derogatory critiques.

I've changed my signature line for those who 'feel the need'.

[jziegler]

I certainly feel the justified critiques are a good thing. A plain "I don't like it" is a comment that is better left untyped. Sure, I like it if someone says something nice about my work. But, I learn more if they tell me how I could make it better.

My wife teaches voice lessons, mostly to teenagers. Rather than telling them they do something wrong, she tells them to try something that will fix it. Almost every time, they get it and realize that it sounds/feels better. The same thing applied to critiques is a good thing.

Jim

[gwyneth]

I do this all day, every day with teenage actors, not woodworkers. I find that the "sandwich" technique works well: put the critique between two positive comments. Also, my students know that I won't give false praise, nor will I bash their self-esteem.

Personally, I try to phrase critiques as positively as possible. There's a world of difference between saying "You need to work more on your lines," and "Don't you have your lines memorized yet?"

A variant of this technique is using the bad to push the good--in the actor example, "You're doing a really good job showing how Macbeth's thoughts change in this scene, so it'll be great when you don't have to try to remember your lines, and..." or "It's brilliant the way you're showing that Prince Hal has both a juvenile and a serious side, but maybe you should try toning down the loud belches..."

In other words, figure out how eliminating a flaw would highlight whatever they're doing well.

[Pappy]

I try to comment on the finished projects posted here. Sometimes a oneliner, especially if I would be echoing comments already made. Other times I will say more mainly because something about the piece really grabs my interested. This is not to say the project in question is more professional looking or better than others, just peaks my interest more.

I try not to make any negative comments unless I feel there is a safety issue in my mind. I will make suggestions for another approach if I think it may help on future projects.

All of us, no matter how new or experienced in woodworking, should always be learning. Often an approach to a problem or project from a "Newby" works simply because he/she tries something more experienced woodworkers wouldn't think of as practical

[cabinetman]

I try to comment on the finished projects posted here. Sometimes a oneliner, especially if I would be echoing comments already made. Other times I will say more mainly because something about the piece really grabs my interested. This is not to say the project in question is more professional looking or better than others, just peaks my interest more.

I try not to make any negative comments unless I feel there is a safety issue in my mind. I will make suggestions for another approach if I think it may help on future projects.

All of us, no matter how new or experienced in woodworking, should always be learning. Often an approach to a problem or project from a "Newby" works simply because he/she tries something more experienced woodworkers wouldn't think of as practical

Pretty much the way I feel. If the post is looking for comments on technique, that represents an open appeal to the suggestion of others. If the post shows a project with a "Whaddya think?", that gives way to opinion, which is usually not in a critique form, but rather in a positive response.

This is a unique subject matter that is common to most woodworking forums. I'm a member of several forums as others here are. On one forum I posted one of the most difficult projects I have ever done. I think I got two responses. Both of which were the "nice" category. Then someone posts what looked like a rectangular stick with 8 coats of polyurethane on it, and the responses were "fantastic", "incredible workmanship", and totaled in about 18-20 replies. I'm thinking to myself just reading the replies that there is something wrong with this differential. I would think a project that was involved would interest those that were starting out and represent some degree of creativity or craftsmanship. Maybe it wasn't seen that way. Projects or ideas that include tutorials or unique/advanced procedures don't seem to be popular.

I've had projects brought to me that I thought were abortions and wouldn't dare post pictures on any forum. But, it's a living. A job is a job. I don't always get to make something I like. What appeals to some could be downright ugly to others. I try not to view finished work as it applies to any specific use. For example, a book case cabinet designed for a store may be totally out of place in someone's home.

As for the criticism, if the poster asks for ideas, he/she may be honestly asking for suggestions. It's difficult to give opinions as they are a personal. I get many PM's from members asking for help and opinion. This type of private discussion can be very helpful as specifics can be exchanged honestly. I do suggest that some discussion sought in a PM might be beneficial to include in the post, as the discussion on it may benefit others. Having it in a regular post opens the discussion to a variety of opinions, which I think is important.
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[final_t]

Heh, okay, open challenge/request:

Critique my work - both the web site *and* the items listed! Let's see how it's done and if I was able to put enough poly on the stick of wood.

http://wilsonmanorcrafts.com

[RayintheUK]

Heh, okay, open challenge/request:

Critique my work - both the web site *and* the items listed! Let's see how it's done and if I was able to put enough poly on the stick of wood.

http://wilsonmanorcrafts.com

The danger with this "challenge/request" is that the response may be given for the wrong reason (i.e., to rise to the challenge), or at the wrong speed. Criticizing a website in its entirety is a long job, especially with links, multiple pictures, etc. A quick visit might reveal, for example, that when some pics are clicked on, the resultant page repeats the picture, whereas other pages/links display an enlarged view alone, or an enlarged view with ability to select the product.

What I know about e-commerce websites could be written on a pinhead with a toilet brush, but I know whether or not I like the style and content. You may not have had any control over the layout, especially if a template was used, so the page may not accurately reflect your style anyway. This has taken longer to type than to do, but you get the idea.

To answer the OP, I tend to offer praise publicly, criticism privately, where warranted, or if asked. At least this gives the enquirer the choice of whether, or not, to publicize the response for the "benefit" of others, if appropriate.

Long-winded as ever - as a Kentuckian once said to me, "You can always tell an Englishman, but not much"!

Ray.

[jhart]

I guess one of the reasons I keep coming back to this forum is that I seldom see negative feedback, especially on finished projects. I will usually add a comment if i really like the project or can add something that wasn't said before.
All in all, I don't really see much in the way of problems on this forum, a tribute to the ground rules set up by Sam and the mods when started.

[crokett]

Projects or ideas that include tutorials or unique/advanced procedures don't seem to be popular.

Mike that is because (IMO anyway) it is hard to make those kinds of posts without sounding like a stuffy know-it-all. Plus there are 18 ways + Sunday to do just about anything in woodworking and most everybody is convinced that his/her way is the best one.