Pool pump Question

[crokett]

Ok... long story but we got this pool to replace the inflatable ring one. It is only full to 2' right now so my 2yr old daughter can stand. Problem is the intake/exhaust for the pump are up near the top edge and at least the intake depends on gravity feeding the water in.
First question - do these little pumps have the lift to get the water up over the side of the pool, into the pump then back up to the discharge? Assuming yes, Second question - I know running the pump sans water is a bad thing. will it hurt the pump to run long enough to suck the water up over the pool and into the pump?

If this won't work any way I can use a sump pump to filter the water? The pump would have to go in the pool pump the water out, through a filter then back in. It is either this or rig some sort of platform in the pool I think.

[Daryl]

I think you will have a siphon that should work with the return over the top edge of the pool. I don't know if the pump will have enough suction to start the siphon, but it would be pretty easy priming the return when starting the pump.

[Jim Boyd]

Definately prime it first. Siphon action should take care of the rest, as Daryl says.

[Dirty Dave]

There are a couple of problems with what you are trying to do. First and most importaintly, do not put a sump pump in the pool. It is not safe for people to be in water with a pump. Its the old water and electricity thing. You will find that most all pump manufacturers put a disclaimer on their product warning not to be in the water with a sump pump.

It is a common misconseption that pumps have a suction. In point of fact they push liquid out creating a void which is filled by atmospheric pressure pushing down on the inlet water supply. You can run your pump as long as you like but unless there is a way to immediately refill the pump casing as the water is pushed out, as with a self priming type pump, the pump won't prime and pump. Running a pump dry for extended periods of time will burn out the seals. Typically that is five to ten minutes but could be more or less.

From the pool design you linked to, it looks like you need to connect a hose that will not collapse, hard plastic or wire reinforced, to the inlet port in the side of the pool that will drop well below the surface of the water level. Then you have to prime the system. You might try using a wet dry shop vac connected to the discharge port in the pool. Once the inlet pipe, pump and discharge pipe are full, the pump should work and circulate the water. You may have to re prime the system each time you start the pump unless you also run the discharge pipe down below the water level. Having both the inlet and discharge pipes below the surface will allow the water to siphon through the system keeping it full.

Bear in mind that pool pump inlets are at the top of the walls to pull contaminents floating on the surface into the filter keeping them from falling to the bottom and minimizing pool cleaning.

Hope this helps.

[jAngiel]

I think that the pump would have enough power to pump the water back to the top return, if it was full it would have to do that anyway. You may be able to hook up the intake for the pump to the drain that is at the bottom edge of the pool. I has a little cap that unscrews and then the plastic part should pull out.

My SIL's pool by the same company has little skimmer that attaches to the top rail of the pool and then you can adjust the height of the skimmer so it is just at the waters surface. If yours has this you may be able to figure out a way to lower the skimmer to the water level and the bottom of the skimmer is attached to the pump inlet via the drain instead of the lower water port.

[crokett]

Dave,

Neither pump would be operating while people are swimming. Certainly the sump pump would not be in the pool. I'd put it on a timer for however long it takes to push all the water through every day or so.

I've been told that these type pumps now are self priming. I know this one says that when first installing new or after filter changes, open the air vent to bleed the air off. This implies a self-priming pump. I think I'd just have to do this every time I run the pump. The pool also comes with a surface skimmer that is designed to sit on the water and pre-filter for the pump so I believe I have the intake figured out. I'd just hook it to the lower exhaust port on the pool - the pump doesn't care which is which.

[Pappy]

I tried to use the pump/filter off one of the inflatable ring types to filter the water in a kiddie pool for the grandkids. Got the hoses and pump full of water, turned it on, and it pumped what was in the hoses and pump back into the pool but wouldn't pick up any more water.

Like James suggested, you might be able to reverse the lines. This would also give you somewhat of an aerating effect on the water if it works.

[Dirty Dave]

Crokett,

If you can bleed the air out of the pump it is possible that the pump will prime and pump especially if the skimmer can float on the water level. You may have to manually fill the suction line on your first attempt. Typically that air bleed is to remove air trapped at the top of the filter so all of the filter media can be utilized.

The key is to evacuate all of the air out of the suction line and pump case. The pump will indeed pump out of the discharge regardless of whether it is above or below water. My suggestion that you pipe it below the water level was purely to prevent having to re-prime or evacuate the air from your system every time you turn off the pump. Water seeks its own level and will often reverse its direction when the pump is turned off drawing air into the pump from the discharge side.

As long as you are absolutely sure no one will be in the pool with the pump your sump pump idea will absolutely recirculate the water through the filter. You can also intall a "Y" pipe on the discharge attaching the second "Y" inlet to the floating skimmer. The water will be drawn through the skimmer like a venturi helping you to clean the surface debris.

My concerns about the sump pump are because I worked for a pump manufacturer that was sued over a child reciving a severe shock while cooling their legs in a water feature. The cord had been nicked during installation by the contractor.

Plumbing the intake to the bottom drain should also work. The water will seek its own level to the surface elevation in the suction pipe reducing the amount of air that will need to be evacuated. Suction piping issues are the most common problem with pumps not working properly.

[crokett]

I hadn't thought about the bottom drain - I will check that out to see if it is possible. The hardest to do the hookup (not really designed for it) but seems to be the easiest solution.

[Russianwolf]

There are two types of intake in pools (was a pool attendant during college and became very much aquainted with the pump/filter). 1)skimmers. At the top to catch floating debris as mentioned. After the debris is caught in a basket filter, the water then goes to the main filter. 2)bottom intakes. Large intakes at the bottom of the pool that go directly to the main filter.

The bottom intakes mainly circulate the water as the discharges are usually about a foot below the surface. The only ones that do any filtering are the skimmers. The bottom intakes just don't have the pull required to suck in the debris from the bottom, so you still need a vac to get it.

You shouldn't have any problems swimming with the pump on (unless they specifically note not too) as the motor is not exposed in any way to the water on these. The pump on the one I dealt with was a 220v 3 phase motor and would have raised the hairs on a person I'm sure.

[maxparot]

Single vs. Dual bottom drain pools.

You shouldn't have any problems swimming with the pump on (unless they specifically note not too) as the motor is not exposed in any way to the water on these. The pump on the one I dealt with was a 220v 3 phase motor and would have raised the hairs on a person I'm sure.

On new inground pools they split the main drains (bottom intakes) this way neither has enough suction to create a safety issue. This is not the case on all pools. If your pool has a single bottom drain you should not get too close to it while the pool filter is running! This doesn't mean you can't swim while it is on. Further, it is never recommended for anyone to swim unattended even for a few seconds.

[Russianwolf]

On new inground pools they split the main drains (bottom intakes) this way neither has enough suction to create a safety issue. This is not the case on all pools. If your pool has a single bottom drain you should not get too close to it while the pool filter is running! This doesn't mean you can't swim while it is on. Further, it is never recommended for anyone to swim unattended even for a few seconds.

I'll change the caveat to if your poll only has one INTAKE, be careful. If you have one bottom drain and one skimmer both going to the pump, suction shouldn't be an issue as if one gets blocked, all suction will go to the other. path of least resistance and all.

And be very careful what you put in the intakes. http://www.snopes.com/risque/penile/pool.htm

[maxparot]

I'll change the caveat to if your poll only has one INTAKE, be careful. If you have one bottom drain and one skimmer both going to the pump, suction shouldn't be an issue as if one gets blocked, all suction will go to the other. path of least resistance and all.

You need to go a bit further any time there is a single bottom filter even with a skimmer care needs to be taken. The reason is many new skimmers use the water pressure feeding back to the pool as a venturi to increase the skimmer's efficiency. This type of skimmer will allow you to divert the full suction of the pump to the main drain and still allow the skimmer to function using the venturi to create suction at the top of the skimmer while the pressure out the bottom of the skimmer to create a current in the pool to move debrie towards the skimmer.

[crokett]

This pool has 3 ports in the side. 2 are intake/exhaust for the pump, third is the bottom drain - normally only used for draining. I will investigate as to whether I can hook the pump intake to the bottom drain and if the strainer basket can hook to the inside.

If I can't do this then I will hook the pump intake to the lower pump port and hook the strainer to the inside. After I pull permanent power for the pump I will add a timer. The pump will only need to run for a few hrs and that can happen overnight. There is no need to run it while people are swimming.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

And be very careful what you put in the intakes. http://www.snopes.com/risque/penile/pool.htm

That is great. I love the source cited "Was Hotel Liable In Bizarre Pool Mishap?", Hotel and Motel Management. So this guy got an article written on his incident an industry trade magazine?!!? LOL! That is rich. I can not imagine this guy bringing suit and facing judge, jury, media, etc but then again I am sure it could happen.