What's Lower Than Being Unethical?

**GRDavid** · 12-01-2006, 07:44 PM

I suppose you were so naive that you had no idea why you were asked for a second invoice. You complied with no feeling that what you were doing was unethical.

Now that I'm done LMAO over that one let's get to the part where regardless of whether you did it or not it is none of your business what the designer charged for her services. Her agreement with the customer is not your agreement with her customer.
How are we to know you didn't overcharge the designer? This isn't about ethics I'm guessing as much as it is about a guilty conscience that got burned by someone as complicit as you were at playing the game.

**crokett** · 12-01-2006, 08:54 PM

Why you are giving the designer invoices for her to pass on to the client? The designer is sorta like a GC, no? So she invoices the client for everything then pays you? Personally if someone asked me for 2 invoices I'd suspect something was going on.

**GRDavid** · 12-01-2006, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by crokett

Why you are giving the designer invoices for her to pass on to the client?

If he posts it enough times on on enough forums maybe someone wil convince him he was absolved from from contributing to the behavior. Short of that he's as bad as what he's preaching against.

I think his sig line says it all about that type of delusional thinking.

Sad really.

**Ed62** · 12-01-2006, 10:34 PM

I think "guilty conscience", as stated above, is the proper term. When someone asks for 2 different invoices, it should be a red flag. I'm sure it happens every day. A lot of people can look at themselves in the mirror without a thought about it. Others can't.

Ed

**crokett** · 12-01-2006, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by GRDavid

If he posts it enough times on on enough forums maybe someone wil convince him he was absolved from from contributing to the behavior. Short of that he's as bad as what he's preaching against.

Mayhaps. But he did also say this was the last time he worked with this designer, despite the negative impact to his business. I am still puzzled as to why he would be giving 2 invoices.

My dad is a computer consultant. I briefly kept his books. We were subs on a lot of contracts and never, ever provided invoices to the contracting company to give its clients. We billed the contract co who in turn billed the customer. Ethics aside, there are lots of legal and tax reasons not to do what the OP did.

**cabinetman** · 12-02-2006, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by GRDavid

If he posts it enough times on on enough forums maybe someone wil convince him he was absolved from from contributing to the behavior. Short of that he's as bad as what he's preaching against.

I think his sig line says it all about that type of delusional thinking.

Sad really.

What world are you from. Do you live in a nice little protected shell making comments on character? Are you self employed? Do you work at all? Why don't we talk about how absolutely pure and unfettered life you have lived. We can start by assuming that you have never done anything that was the least bit "questionable". Since you have little understanding of how business is done or what it takes to maintain a business, I'll explain it to you in a way you can understand.

It's an ordinary form of paperwork very common in the furnishings industry for a designer/decorator to include with their invoicing to their client receipts from their suppliers, vendors, bills, hours, just about anything the client would owe to the designer. The way those documents are presented may be as is, or a copy, or itemized on the designers invoice. As for "drop shipped" or "picked up" type of receiving by the client, the provider may have a "delivery ticket" or a "packing slip" with the price amount in a shaded or blocked out area. Are you with me so far?

Giving the designer two receipts was not my usual practice. This designer and I had been doing business for a couple of years and I had no idea that she would do what she did. It was represented to the client as a "cost" item. The fact is, it isn't my business what transacts between her and her client as long as my end of it is satisified. I didn't know what arrangements were made between her and her client. Those arrangements could be a variety of conditions, that some items could be paid as received or "retail" amount.

At times I would be working for the client, and getting paid by the client, and fee amounts could be paid by the client to the designer. Or, I would collect from the client and send the differential to the designer. It's all in the payment arrangements. Do you have some off the wall comments about that?

I don't agree with doing anything illegal or unethical. I wouldn't have posted this if I thought it was either on my part.

So wake up buddy, there are times in life when it won't go as you like. Where do you come off making character assinations based on a one time business transaction. So, I'll ask you this - If you're looking death in the face, would you outright lie to save your life? Now we know that you're either a lier or a dead man.

"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

**leehljp** · 12-02-2006, 06:03 AM

Time to calm down and not go adding more comments that would start a fire or flame.

For added comments, make them constructive.

**Ken Massingale** · 12-02-2006, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by leehljp

Time to calm down and not go adding more comments that would start a fire or flame.

For added comments, make them constructive.

Yep.
Dang, just un-ignored, now have to add to the ignore list again. Life is tough. ;-D
k

**Stytooner** · 12-02-2006, 07:47 AM

I don't wish to fuel any fires either. I have worked with a couple designers as well and one thing about these were they were not the smartest one's ever made.
I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt.
It is possible that she didn't compare the two, but just picked one invoice and then added her fee. The telling part of this story would have been how this was resolved by her had she known about it. If she wants to stay in business, she won't double charge very many people before word gets around. Ethics or not, it is very poor business practice.

**crokett** · 12-02-2006, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by cabinetman

At times I would be working for the client, and getting paid by the client, and fee amounts could be paid by the client to the designer. Or, I would collect from the client and send the differential to the designer. It's all in the payment arrangements.

I stand corrected. We generally got paid by a contractor. Also got paid by a client directly if we worked for a client directly. But if we were a sub we did not ever collect from a client directly. Sounds like the furniture business is different.

**cgallery** · 12-02-2006, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by crokett

The designer is sorta like a GC, no? So she invoices the client for everything then pays you?

Not always. Some clients insist on paying suppliers and subs directly. This prevents the GC from "diverting" the funds (quite common). Many clients will insist on paying suppliers and subs early-on, only to change their minds at the last minute and decide they'd rather write a single check. Many reasons for doing it both ways.

Thanks,
Phil

**cgallery** · 12-02-2006, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by GRDavid

I suppose you were so naive that you had no idea why you were asked for a second invoice. You complied with no feeling that what you were doing was unethical.

There are legitimate reasons for two invoices. Some clients insist on paying subs/suppliers directly. Some pay the designer. Many change their minds six times from start to finish on a project.

Originally posted by GRDavid

Now that I'm done LMAO over that one let's get to the part where regardless of whether you did it or not it is none of your business what the designer charged for her services. Her agreement with the customer is not your agreement with her customer.

It IS his business. In this case, either an honest mistake or fraud had been committed. If it is an honest mistake the designer would certainly like to correct it. If fraud, then cabinetman needs to make certain he isn't liable if the client figures out the designer has done this (It is likely that the designer would have pulled the same fast one with other suppliers).

Originally posted by GRDavid

How are we to know you didn't overcharge the designer? This isn't about ethics I'm guessing as much as it is about a guilty conscience that got burned by someone as complicit as you were at playing the game.

WOW! Where did that come from?

**paintandbodtman** · 12-02-2006, 10:13 AM

This is not to side with any of the prior posts but haveing spent 30 plus years in the collision repair business and working with both the customer and insurance company reps could tell you some good ones. I've been asked by all walks of life to help them steal from the other person or company if insurance were involved, but they in their "rational" reasoning did'nt consider it stealing or unethical in their their mind. this includes adjusters as well when their job performance is gauges by how much they can save the insc. co. Taught collision repair in the public school system in Winston-Salem for 5 years and their is no doubt in my mind that most kids today are a product of the adults in their surroundings be it good or bad.
The problem with soceity today is most people don't know the differance between reputation and character. I used to tell my students that reputation was what people thought of them and character was what they did when no one was around to see it and the problem was that we had a lot of people with good reputations but no character.
Cabinetman I too have been asked to do what I at the time thought to be considered questionable in my line of work and had to decide on the spur of the moment what impact it might have on my business and used to wonder later if they were right or wrong and usually went against the grain for my industry. My business suffered tremendously from lots of those decisions especially when insurance companies were involved, had to adjust the lifestyle considerably but don't have any trouble sleeping at night

**paintandbodtman** · 12-02-2006, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by cgallery

There are legitimate reasons for two invoices. Some clients insist on paying subs/suppliers directly. Some pay the designer. Many change their minds six times from start to finish on a project.

It IS his business. In this case, either an honest mistake or fraud had been committed. If it is an honest mistake the designer would certainly like to correct it. If fraud, then cabinetman needs to make certain he isn't liable if the client figures out the designer has done this (It is likely that the designer would have pulled the same fast one with other suppliers).

WOW! Where did that come from?

I understand the concept of what you're saying here and realize that in todays economy that their are plenty of brokers out here that make their livelyhood by being the laision between customer and or tradesperson I agree that there are times that there will be multible invoices for various reasons but unless there has been an addition to the original plans or for some legitimate reason the material prices changed which usually have been discussed at the start then there is no reason for the total of those invoices to reflect a total price other than what was originally agreed on. When the person doing the work is asked to produce an invoice that includes the brokers markup along with an invoice for actual charges that would tell me one of two things,either the broker is'nt smart enough to be in the business he's in or something unethical is going on, I don't care to do business with this person under either one of those situations.Just my 2 cents worth OHO

What's Lower Than Being Unethical?

What's Lower Than Being Unethical?

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