Another HiDef rant

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  • vaking
    Veteran Member
    • Apr 2005
    • 1428
    • Montclair, NJ, USA.
    • Ryobi BT3100-1

    #1

    Another HiDef rant

    The topics of HiDef/Home Theaters are popular here, I did not want to hijack any existing threats, so I am making a new one. I don't have any specific questions at the moment but I had some interesting experience recently which I can share.
    I will start with few facts:
    In 2004 Philips discontinued manufacturing and research on all LCOS (Liquid Crystal On Silicon) displays. According to Philips's press release LCOS was technologically superior to LCD or DLP regarding the picture quality but it was more expensive to manufacture. Big screen TVs - again according to Philips - are becoming a commodity item (means price is more important than quality), so LCOS would not be profitable line.
    Other manufacturers are still making this type of displays but there aren't many choices.
    The recent Crutchfield catalog provides a comparitive chart of different display types and typical pros and cons. Crutchfield confirms that LCOS (aka SXRD) hold their ground well against all other types but there aren't many models to choose from. Everything seems to support Philips's position.

    Couple months ago my son and I found in the store probably the last LCOS TV made by Philips. Obviously it had been sitting somewhere for 2 years, it was heavily discounted but it was still with original manufacturer's warranty. Knowing all the facts we decided that the price was too tempting and we bought that TV and a 3-year extended warranty on it. The TV is of a Cineous line (top Philips line) with load of features. The TV has 720p native resolution and it does not have HDMI input, everything else would be fine even by latest standards. It accepts 1080I input (will downconvert to 720), has good sound with virtual surround processor, subwoofer out, 7 inputs including VGA, DVI, many components,... So now my entertainment center features a 55" monster display. I have a very good quality picture even when I watch regular TV shows (the TV is doing upconvert to 720 for standard input). Few days ago my son organized a gaming party with his friends. One brought an X-box and the 4 youngsters were sitting 10' away from a TV and played X-box with 4 wireless controllers looking at the screen split 4-way so each kid enjoyed a personal 27" TV screen - that was impressive.
    I guess I am glad to confirm what other people had said earlier - resolution isn't everything and, in fact, isn't the most important factor in a good TV. 720p is plenty even on the screen as big as 55". Those asking what type of display to get - pay close attention to SXRD/LCOS type if you can find it.
    Last edited by vaking; 11-17-2006, 03:11 PM.
    Alex V
  • fiasco
    Established Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 144

    #2
    720 is ok but 1080 is better. Especially in your reference to the XBOX divided up into 4 screens.

    I have a home theatre personal computer hooked to my 720p HDTV and I wish I could do 1080.

    There's a big difference between 1080 vertical lines vs 720 especially when viewing text.

    Comment

    • HarmsWay
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2003
      • 878
      • Victoria, BC
      • BT3000

      #3
      I have to agree with fiasco there. When your source matches your display, resolution makes a big difference. If your source is 720p then there's not much point in spending the extra cash for resolution but with either of the 1080p DVDs or a PC as source, a nice 1080p display rocks!

      Bob

      Comment

      • MilDoc

        #4
        Oh come on! there is so much confusion on this issue -- thanks to the FCC and manufactureres, it's pathetic!

        To put it simply, human visual acuity is limited. With a screen smaller tha 70" diagonal at a seating distance of 10 feet, unless you are Superman, you can't see the difference between 1080p and 720p. But, a 720p display has to scale a 1080i signal which could introduce artifacts, while a 1080p only needs to deinterlace a 1080i signal (but that may also produce artifacts).

        Confused yet? Yeah, so is everyone else. It's taken me years of reading everything I can get re: HDTV to understand that the gov, as usual, gave in to BigBidness, rather than establish a true standard like other countries have.

        Want to know how to pick a good screen size? SMPTE standrds are probably the best.

        Comment

        • JR
          The Full Monte
          • Feb 2004
          • 5636
          • Eugene, OR
          • BT3000

          #5
          Alex, isn't this technically a rave instead of a rant?

          Just checking.

          JR
          JR

          Comment

          • Ed62
            The Full Monte
            • Oct 2006
            • 6021
            • NW Indiana
            • BT3K

            #6
            I've been (not seriously, at least not yet) considering a new HDTV, and I've read some of the differences among specs. But I wonder just how much difference I'll really see for a higher price tag. Would I have to have 2 sets next to each other to see the difference, or is there such a difference that it stands out drastically? I'm not one to buy something because some type of in-depth testing concludes that one's superior to another. For instance, you might be able to get a sound system that has a range only a dog can hear. I'm not interested in that. How much real-world difference is there?

            Ed
            Do you know about kickback? Ray has a good writeup here... https://www.sawdustzone.org/articles...mare-explained

            For a kickback demonstration video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/

            Comment

            • cgallery
              Veteran Member
              • Sep 2004
              • 4503
              • Milwaukee, WI
              • BT3K

              #7
              Originally posted by Ed62
              I've been (not seriously, at least not yet) considering a new HDTV, and I've read some of the differences among specs. But I wonder just how much difference I'll really see for a higher price tag. Would I have to have 2 sets next to each other to see the difference, or is there such a difference that it stands out drastically? I'm not one to buy something because some type of in-depth testing concludes that one's superior to another. For instance, you might be able to get a sound system that has a range only a dog can hear. I'm not interested in that. How much real-world difference is there?

              Ed
              Many of the differences are quite subjective. And most of the TV's I find (even in "high-end" botique stores) are adjusted to suit the taste of a ten year old that watches "Sponge Bob Square Pants" all day long, making direct comparisons tough.

              The high minimum cost of LCD and plasma technology also kinda assures that even the lower-end models will be quite nice.

              I could go on and on, but I think it would be very difficult to purchase a LCD or plasma TV that wouldn't be satisfactory, especially after you have time to adjust it to your liking.

              The only caveat being that the human interface can be everything. I've always liked the quality of Mitsubishi products, for instance, but I cannot stand the Mitsubishi products I've owned (VCR and a TV) because their remote controls were designed by monkeys.

              Comment

              • MilDoc

                #8
                Comparing sets in a store is fraught with problems. Usually the controls are tweaked to give a very bright and mor blue color to compete with the strong overhead lights, sound is set for high bass, the picture source may be variable,etc. And if the sets are not all set "alike," comparison is truly difficult / impossible.

                For one of the better test of many displays and a pretty clear explanation of deinterlacing, bandwidth, and other essential things, look at the Nov. 06 Home Theater magazine. 54% failed the deinterlace test, 80% failed the 3:2 cadence test. The ones that passed both are exceptional.

                Comment

                • fiasco
                  Established Member
                  • Nov 2006
                  • 144

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ed62
                  I've been (not seriously, at least not yet) considering a new HDTV, and I've read some of the differences among specs. But I wonder just how much difference I'll really see for a higher price tag. Would I have to have 2 sets next to each other to see the difference, or is there such a difference that it stands out drastically? I'm not one to buy something because some type of in-depth testing concludes that one's superior to another. For instance, you might be able to get a sound system that has a range only a dog can hear. I'm not interested in that. How much real-world difference is there?

                  Ed
                  It all depends on the source. DVD's are 480p (480 vertical lines of resolution). DirecTV and my local channel broadcasts are only 1080i. BluRay and HDDVD are 1080p.

                  If you put two 50" televisions next to each other one 1080p and the other 720p and played the same HDDVD on both, yes you would see the difference.

                  Comment

                  • Ed62
                    The Full Monte
                    • Oct 2006
                    • 6021
                    • NW Indiana
                    • BT3K

                    #10
                    Originally posted by fiasco
                    If you put two 50" televisions next to each other one 1080p and the other 720p and played the same HDDVD on both, yes you would see the difference.
                    I can understand that, but if they were *not* side by side, could you tell the difference? What I mean is, if you came into my home, and saw my TV, but didn't know the specs, could you really tell just by looking at mine (imagine all settings at optimum)? Of course I understand the source must be capable of the highest detailed image.

                    Ed
                    Do you know about kickback? Ray has a good writeup here... https://www.sawdustzone.org/articles...mare-explained

                    For a kickback demonstration video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/

                    Comment

                    • MilDoc

                      #11
                      Originally posted by fiasco
                      If you put two 50" televisions next to each other one 1080p and the other 720p and played the same HDDVD on both, yes you would see the difference.
                      Not quite. If you're standing close, as in a store, yes you will see a difference. But screen size is relative to viewing distance (which varies with your home) and viewing distance is relative to resolution, plus many other factors.

                      If our FCC had ruled re: HDTV like Japan did, there would be no confusion.

                      Comment

                      • MilDoc

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ed62
                        I can understand that, but if they were *not* side by side, could you tell the difference?
                        Ed
                        Impossible to say. What is your ambient light situation (dark, bright, reflections)? What is your viewing distance? Has the TV been adjusted to film making standards by a professional? (Film standards are pretty absolute. Want to see what the director envisioned? Get a professionl to adjust your set rather than settle for the adjustments from the factory or store.) And then we get into human visual acuity and memory. Too complicated to go into!

                        Comment

                        • Kristofor
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 1331
                          • Twin Cities, MN
                          • Jet JTAS10 Cabinet Saw

                          #13
                          Originally posted by MilDoc

                          To put it simply, human visual acuity is limited. With a screen smaller tha 70" diagonal at a seating distance of 10 feet, unless you are Superman, you can't see the difference between 1080p and 720p.
                          That hasn't been true in my experience... For motion video sources I personally don't see much difference. However, hook up a PC and run a 720 signal to a 1080 monitor and you'll see how much real estate is missing. Then take a 1080 signal and try to down convert to 720 and you'll see terrible artifacts.

                          This doesn't mean a 720 display is a bad choice for many/most folks, just depends what you want to feed it.


                          Kristofor.

                          Comment

                          • scorrpio
                            Veteran Member
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 1566
                            • Wayne, NJ, USA.

                            #14
                            Problem with LCoS is, it is a projection TV. Which means very expensive lamps that regularly burn out. So, when buying a TV like that, factor in the lamp replacements (frequency depends on how much it is used). Large screen plasmas are dropping in price as well, pushing the projection TVs (with lamp cost factored in). I personally would go for a projection only for a front projection setup - a basement room, 10' screen, projector ceiling-mounted.

                            Although I hope that by the time I finish my basement, we'll see large size OLED screens. OLEDs can be set on a flexible substrate, meaning you could have a 12' screen that rolls up into a tube when not used - just like a screen for a projector - but screen is a display itself - no projector needed. Hopefully, we'll see those by 2010.

                            Comment

                            • vaking
                              Veteran Member
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 1428
                              • Montclair, NJ, USA.
                              • Ryobi BT3100-1

                              #15
                              Originally posted by JR
                              Alex, isn't this technically a rave instead of a rant?

                              Just checking.

                              JR
                              JR,
                              No, it was a rant, not a rave. My post caused a debate with people expressing conflicting opinions, raves or gloats usually generate nothing but "you suck". Gloats are pointless (IMO) but I was looking forward to following a debate. I believe people are confirming what I suspected. When you change display resolution of your computer screen from 640 to 800 - all icons and fonts get smaller so you can fit more information on the screen. When you feed 720 resolution signal into 1080 lines display you will lose real estate and will be able to put less information on the screen. These types of things people see immediately because the resolution change affects the amount of information on the screen. But when you feed the same amount of information and it is properly scaled to occupy the available real estate and the only difference is if the picture is displayed using 720 lines or 1080 lines - human eye cannot tell the difference between 720 and 1080 on a screen 55" diagonal from 10 feet. That means that quality of processing logic in the TV (ability to deinterlace, to handle artifacts, etc) is more important than number of lines the display can handle. The quality of logic and ergonomic factors (how comfortable is the remote) separate good quality display from poor quality. Like everywhere else there is quality and there is fashion. 1080p resolution today I believe is a fashion statement. Thanks to everybody for your opinions.

                              Scorpio - you are correct about projection TVs and lamps. That's why I got mine with 4 year warranty including lamps. I will worry about lamps after 4 years. Something tells me that not many HD TVs will survive the next 4 years. It is a period I want to get by on the cheap.
                              Alex V

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