union

[jseklund]

I dont want to offend but you are dillusional if you think that you are in control of your situation in life and that no outside person or influence could wrest said control away from you. That's just a generalization for life itself but it certainly holds true for labor/employment security.

I have decent job security but I also have skills that would enable me to work in a couple different fields should my plant close. Software programming, server administration, home remodeling ect. Despite that I am not naive enough to think that I'm 100% in control of my life situation.

I am not offended at all. However, I don't think I'm dillusional. I realize where you are coming from. The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as "security". That is the illusion. Life is not secure. However, in taking control of what you can- and your time and labor is one of those things- you may gain a little more freedom. Security is the method that companies and unions use to secure their lot in life with people who are not in control.

I watch people who go to work every day doing things they hate. When you ask them why, they say, "It's a steady pay check and has good benefits. Besides, I can't afford the health care if I'm not employed." The fact of the matter is, they are less in control of their lives than they think. They think the 'steady paycheck' and 'benefits' equate to security. The fact is, they could lose their job, or the company could go out of business any day of the week. Look at all of the people who counted on pensions for "security" instead of taking control and are now left with nothing. They will be forced to work until their 80 or worse, dead- because they fell for the illusion of security. How secure were they really? A lot of them probably hated every second of their working life, but they did it because they were "secure".

The bottom line is that people are handed a set of values and never come up with what they really value the most themselves. I can lose my life or be paralyzed in a car accident, lose my job, lose anything. I am not in control of the situation. But I am in control of ME. If any of that were to happen, I will be either dead or alive. If I am alive then I am going to d what I can to actually live and live on my terms.

Maybe I'm dillusional. If so, at least it's my decision to be that way and not something I decided without realizing someone else was deciding for me. I used to think jobs = security. I got out of college and went right for a "job" even though I had already started my own business. I felt that is what was expected of me- from my familiy and society. I went to college because my parents always expected I would. I am so glad that they had those expectations for me- because they were beneficial. However, some of their values are not mine anymore. So, I know where you're coming from. I've been on both sides of the fence and made my decision of which works better for me. If you decided for YOURSELF which side you like best- that's good for you. But the question is- are you really the one who decided, or was it all an illusion and you didn't realize you were making a choice?

[rickd]

....The bottom line is that people are handed a set of values and never come up with what they really value the most themselves. I can lose my life or be paralyzed in a car accident, lose my job, lose anything. I am not in control of the situation. But I am in control of ME. If any of that were to happen, I will be either dead or alive. If I am alive then I am going to d what I can to actually live and live on my terms.

I'm glad that you seem to have your life philosophy down pat and that you feel you are completely in control of your own situation - nothing wrong with that.

However, this entire discussion is not about you! You are just one individual which makes your 'me' point irrelevant to this discussion. Why? Because millions and millions of individuals, just like you, have voluntarily and gladly chosen to join and remain members of unions. Conversely, millions and millions have chosen the opposite and do not hold unions in very high regard.

Like you, each of these individuals has made a choice. That choice has been affected by a myriad of difficult options - i.e. the need to put family ahead of their own wants, health care for children, education for children, family illness etc. Sometimes, in life, we don't always get what we want but find it is much better to sacrifice our wants for the more important needs of our families and friends. We all have different 'values'.

So, even though you have chosen the path of total self-reliance, admirable enough, others have chosen exactly the same thing while also taking into consideration the impact that their decisions will have on their loved ones. Sometimes, the choice to stay in a job you hate, an employer you despise, is still the right choice for that individual - they make the decision to stay just as you say you would make the decision to leave.

The individual who sacrifices his own wants for the 'needs' of others is every bit in control of his own life as you are. Values dictate what each person must do in a given situation. In war, their are countless examples of heroes who make the ultimate decision to sacrifice themselves to save the lives of their fellow soliers - their personal values allow them to make that choice.

Values are always an individual thing. So, you're point in this discussion of 'unions' and 'miniumum wages' is really a 'moot' one. We all make the same choices as you every day -some of us just have a different set of values that we feel we must consider.

Rick

[cgallery]

I have to disagree that owners treating their workers poorly is the "breeding ground" for unions. Only I can allow someone to control my situation in life. Only I can let an owner treat me badly. If one owner treats me badly, I have the choice to go work for someone else, start my own company, etc. If people stopped blaming things on their outside world, and realized that they are in control- then we would have no need for a union.

I understand that the other side to the coin is that if we were in a society where ALL owners treated EVERYONE badly, then there may be an issue. I just don't think that most workers are treated badly at all. We are such a victim society- and our perception is the issue.

I don't know, maybe I'm too gung-ho about it all, or naive, or too academic, or too whatever....

Well, there was a time when having a job meant working seven days a week, often alongside your wife and children. It meant not getting proper breaks for food and restroom use. You may have been required to live on employer property, pay a large portion of your salary for rent, and pay exhorbitant fees for your food, too. And if you wanted to leave, you may not have had enough money to pay for transportation. It wasn't a matter of a poor employer, they were all poor employers (some worse in some ways than others, but pick your poison).

Unions have largely done away with these abuses in the US. The US labor movement was born at approx. the same time as newer "scientific" management techniques that were the equiv. of beeting employees with a stick if they didn't meet quota. Instead of things getting worse, they improved and that is due mainly to union efforts.

[jseklund]

I'm glad that you seem to have your life philosophy down pat and that you feel you are completely in control of your own situation - nothing wrong with that.

However, this entire discussion is not about you! You are just one individual which makes your 'me' point irrelevant to this discussion. Why? Because millions and millions of individuals, just like you, have voluntarily and gladly chosen to join and remain members of unions. Conversely, millions and millions have chosen the opposite and do not hold unions in very high regard.

Like you, each of these individuals has made a choice. That choice has been affected by a myriad of difficult options - i.e. the need to put family ahead of their own wants, health care for children, education for children, family illness etc. Sometimes, in life, we don't always get what we want but find it is much better to sacrifice our wants for the more important needs of our families and friends. We all have different 'values'.

So, even though you have chosen the path of total self-reliance, admirable enough, others have chosen exactly the same thing while also taking into consideration the impact that their decisions will have on their loved ones. Sometimes, the choice to stay in a job you hate, an employer you despise, is still the right choice for that individual - they make the decision to stay just as you say you would make the decision to leave.

The individual who sacrifices his own wants for the 'needs' of others is every bit in control of his own life as you are. Values dictate what each person must do in a given situation. In war, their are countless examples of heroes who make the ultimate decision to sacrifice themselves to save the lives of their fellow soliers - their personal values allow them to make that choice.

Values are always an individual thing. So, you're point in this discussion of 'unions' and 'miniumum wages' is really a 'moot' one. We all make the same choices as you every day -some of us just have a different set of values that we feel we must consider.

Rick

Rick, valid response. I did not mean to come across as either arrogant, or the center of the world, or that I thought I had the only and perfect philosophy on life. However, much as my decisions do not preclude you from making your decisions to continue with your employer- why should your decision to continue with your employer preclude your employer from making decisions on how to run his life/business?

You said it best- "Sometimes, the choice to stay in a job you hate, an employer you despise, is still the right choice for that individual - they make the decision to stay just as you say you would make the decision to leave. " That is my point exactly. I do not fault them for making that decision, but they did make a choice. It's their decision. But we have to be accountable to our actions- and not make others accountable. Many people are not even aware of the fact they made a decision.

Your point about making sacrifices for loved ones and other "greater goods" is highly respectable and admirable. However, when your plane is going down- you have to put the air mask on your face first before you help someone else. You have to do what is right for you if you are to do what is right for your family. We share the same value here- but with a different twist. Maybe I'm naive....

Well, there was a time when having a job meant working seven days a week, often alongside your wife and children. It meant not getting proper breaks for food and restroom use. You may have been required to live on employer property, pay a large portion of your salary for rent, and pay exhorbitant fees for your food, too. And if you wanted to leave, you may not have had enough money to pay for transportation. It wasn't a matter of a poor employer, they were all poor employers (some worse in some ways than others, but pick your poison).

Unions have largely done away with these abuses in the US. The US labor movement was born at approx. the same time as newer "scientific" management techniques that were the equiv. of beeting employees with a stick if they didn't meet quota. Instead of things getting worse, they improved and that is due mainly to union efforts.

I do agree that Unions have helped us make progress. However, in a truly capitalistic society (which doesn't just pop up)- they are band-aids rather than solutions. Unions got us from point A to point B. Kudos.

I don't agree with slave labor- as a matter of fact the only reason for the American Civil War was because of capitalism. It wasn't a humanitarian "let's free slaves." It was a, "We can't have capitalism if there is no free working labor force." By free, I mean - free to choose where you work and what you work for.

I can see that if EVERYONE is a poor employer, your choices become very limited. Much like nature- diversification is key here. If we have highly educated people who can create benefits for society, they create more and more labor opportunities- and thus more diversity among people.

Side Note:
This goes for everyone in this thread, but RickD and Fiasco in particular. This is a great discussion. I think everyone has valid points on both sides of the fence. There have been some great rebuttals and I enjoy the thought that you have created. Keep it up.