Update on "SAW STOP" technology

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  • uncle al
    Forum Newbie
    • Dec 2002
    • 35
    • CA, USA.

    #1

    Update on "SAW STOP" technology

    Here is an article with the latest on the SAWSTOP

    Tool Inventor Faces Buzz Saw of Opposition: Cindy Skrzycki

    By Cindy Skrzycki

    Oct. 10 (Bloomberg) -- In 1999, Stephen Gass, a patent lawyer and woodworking hobbyist, invented a device to make power saws safer. It was designed to prevent, or at least minimize, the gruesome injuries that result when someone's flesh hits the blade of a table saw spinning at 4,000 revolutions per minute.

    Home hobbyists and commercial workers suffer an estimated 55,000 injuries a year -- including thousands of amputations. Education and an existing saw safety guard didn't work well.

    Gass called his invention SawStop and was so convinced of its value that he quit his job at a law firm, raised capital, and with two partners, started his own company in Wilsonville, Oregon. He demonstrated the technology, which can stop a saw blade in 3/1000 of a second, to anyone who would watch.

    Now, seven years later, Gass says he was unprepared for the buzz saw of opposition he ran into from companies such as Black & Decker Corp., Robert Bosch Tool Corp. and Ryobi Technologies Inc. ``Our thought was the manufacturers would license it,'' he said. ``We thought it was inevitable.''

    Instead, not a single manufacturer has signed a contract with him. An Underwriters Laboratories Inc. subcommittee, with some of the saw manufacturers on the panel, voted in early 2003 not to approve his invention.

    Other Hazard?

    John Drengenberg, manager of consumer affairs for Northbrook, Illinois-based UL, said the independent testing organization thought there were too many unanswered questions. ``The blade stops in microseconds, but do we create some other hazard?'' he said. ``Does the blade fall apart, how easy is it to install a new one, will it work on metal? We don't mandate something because it is nice.''

    Gass then changed direction, turning to the Washington regulatory establishment, in the form of the Consumer Product Safety Commission, to try to win acceptance for SawStop. He petitioned the agency in April 2003, asking it to require the industry to come up with a detection system that would stop a saw blade and result in a cut to a user no deeper than 1/8th of an inch.

    The CPSC reviewed the petition, yet took no immediate action. So Gass concentrated on filing some 50 patents related to the technology.

    The industry, anticipating that the CPSC might become interested in issuing a standard, formed a joint venture later in 2003 to come up with improvements of its own. This spring, the Power Tool Institute, its trade group, told the regulators it would likely have better guarding mechanisms ready by 2007, with the blessing of Underwriters Laboratories.

    Balking at Royalty

    The Cleveland-based institute also said its efforts to examine sensing technology were being hindered by the ``web of patent applications Mr. Gass has filed.''

    The industry made it clear that its members weren't prepared to pay up to an 8 percent royalty on the wholesale price of each saw, Gass's asking price.

    They estimated it would cost at least $70 million to implement the technology proposed in Gass's petition and that consumers might not be willing to pay for it. They suggested the Oregon inventor was using a safety issue to profiteer.

    ``He wants to force his device on the industry at an unreasonable price,'' said Art Herold, a Washington attorney for the institute. Herold said it would be improper for the agency to mandate a standard because ``it would become a promoter and silent partner'' in Gass's technology.

    Gass Undaunted

    Gass was undeterred. He began making and selling SawStop saws himself, selling them for about $4,000 each. (The industry sells lines that range from $100 to about $3,000.) Gass said he got kudos from high school officials who bought saws and were grateful they could send kids home ``with their thumbs.''

    SawStop received some negative reviews in the trade press, yet Gass also won awards such as the Popular Mechanics 2006 Breakthrough Award for safety earlier this month.

    He also unexpectedly found an influential lobbyist. Last year, James Fuller, who had been chief of staff to CPSC Chairman Harold Stratton, heard about Gass's invention from a colleague at Public Strategies, an Austin, Texas-based public relations firm he had joined.

    Fuller offered his services, free of charge. He was impressed by the technology for a simple reason: It might have stopped his brother from losing four fingers in a power-saw accident.

    No Incentive for Industry

    Fuller is a Republican, not inclined to push regulation. But he recalled thinking his old agency should take a closer look. ``You sometimes have to step in to foster these innovations because the industry doesn't have the incentive to do it,'' he said.

    Fuller got an audience for Gass with his former boss on May 30. The inventor showed Stratton and other CPSC officials how the safety device worked by using a hot dog as a stand-in for a finger. When the hot dog hit the saw he had brought into the agency offices, it received not much more than a nick.

    A month later, the CPSC staff recommended the petition be granted. On July 11, the commission voted, 2-1, to start the process of making a new rule, a job that can take years.

    Fuller and Gass said they felt vindicated, although the rejoicing ended four days later when Stratton resigned from the agency. One of the remaining commissioners, Nancy Nord, wanted to defer action on the petition and look instead at voluntary efforts being made by the industry.

    Stalled on Rulemaking

    Nord is now acting chairwoman of the commission. Fuller arranged an audience with her on Sept. 6, but Gass said it was a hard sell.

    Herold of the Power Tool Institute said the result the CPSC is looking for may already have been accomplished because the industry has a new awareness of the need to improve the product.

    Julie Vallese, CPSC spokeswoman, said the saw-safety standard idea isn't dead, but that the agency's ``decision-making procedures'' don't allow the rulemaking to go forward with what amounts to a deadlocked commission.

    Gass is keeping busy. He is developing less-expensive models of his saws and is involved on the legal front. He has testified as an expert witness in one lawsuit against a manufacturer over injuries and is consulting with plaintiffs' lawyers in other cases.

    (Cindy Skrzycki is a regulatory columnist for Bloomberg News.)

    To contact the writer of this column: Cindy Skrzycki at cskrzycki@bloomberg.net .
    Uncle Al

    \"There is never enough time to do it right, but there always seems to be enough time to do it over\"
  • final_t
    Veteran Member
    • Nov 2003
    • 1626
    • .

    #2
    Thanks for the update! Personally, I think the only valid route the SS is going is making their own line of saws which appear to be very good and compete well with the others in the price line (powermatic comes to mind), instead of litigating and patent-filing. The fact that he *is* making his own saw and trying to push a mandated design on others via the Government is a clear money-grab and should be flagged by anyone.
    Gass may say that he's only doing this to help people, but his actions give lie to his words.

    Comment

    • dkhoward
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2003
      • 873
      • Lubbock, Texas, USA.
      • bt3000

      #3
      I get real suspicous when the gov'mint comes around and tells me it is gonna mandate something "for my own good." Usually means Im gonna getr screwed somehow. This time I take it to mean that things are going to get more expensive, more complex and more prone to problems.

      It also infrutiates me that someone tries to backdoor lining his own pocket by getting the gov'mint to mandate what the market place won't support.

      My two cents worth . . putting the soap box back inthe closet
      Dennis K Howard
      www.geocities.com/dennishoward
      "An elephant is nothing more than a mouse built to government specifications." Robert A Heinlein

      Comment

      • MilDoc

        #4
        8% of the cost of the saw to use his patents? That's highway robbery.

        OTOH, the CPSC's "voluntary standards" is also a joke. Industry exists to make money, bolster the bottom line. Safety generally only comes from government regulation and requirements, and sometimes not even then.

        Comment

        • 25
          Established Member
          • Jan 2004
          • 294
          • League City, Tx, USA.
          • BT3100

          #5
          Originally posted by uncle al
          Gass is keeping busy. He is developing less-expensive models of his saws and is involved on the legal front. He has testified as an expert witness in one lawsuit against a manufacturer over injuries and is consulting with plaintiffs' lawyers in other cases.
          I liked this part, lets sue the crap outa companies when their employees get hurt on the basis that the safety wasn't up to par since they weren't using his invention. He's trying to scare companies into buying his saw/technology.

          Comment

          • maxparot
            Veteran Member
            • Jan 2004
            • 1421
            • Mesa, Arizona, USA.
            • BT3100 w/ wide table kit

            #6
            Originally posted by 25
            I liked this part, lets sue the crap outa companies when their employees get hurt on the basis that the safety wasn't up to par since they weren't using his invention. He's trying to scare companies into buying his saw/technology.
            I agree with your interpretation!
            I have a suggestion on how to turn the tables on this type of profiteering;.
            Any legal eagles out there want to pursue this as a class action let me know.
            The idea is to use the laws of eminent domain to dissolve the patent process in cases where an invention if unrestricted by patents would serve the public good.
            In this case Sawstop technology could be used by any manufacturer without royalties because to the safety provided to the public.
            In the case of medications any company could produce a medication to bring down prices and provide better medical services to the public.
            Opinions are like gas;
            I don't mind hearing it, but keep it to yourself if it stinks.

            Comment

            • TheRic
              Veteran Member
              • Jun 2004
              • 1912
              • West Central Ohio
              • bt3100

              #7
              Of course he is trying to heavily line his own pockets, scaring other people into using his product, trying to get the government to do his duty work. And yes 8% of the cost of the saw to use his technology is highway robbery!!

              Did you guys read the first sentence, it explains it all, he's a lawyer!!! The way it looks, he is trying his best to show people how bad lawyers are. If he really cared about the people, he would let other manufactures license the technology for a lot less. Not care more about putting the money in his pocket.
              Ric

              Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

              Comment

              • Pappy
                The Full Monte
                • Dec 2002
                • 10463
                • San Marcos, TX, USA.
                • BT3000 (x2)

                #8
                I posted in the classifieds section this morning 2 adds I founfd on Craigslist for 3 saws being sold by a local mobile home mfg after they were mandated by corporate to upgrade to safer saws. The description in the adds sounded like the SawStop.
                Don, aka Pappy,

                Wise men talk because they have something to say,
                Fools because they have to say something.
                Plato

                Comment

                • Rob R
                  Established Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 256
                  • West, Michigan.

                  #9
                  i am very impressed with the sawstop product. the cabinet saw is very smooth, all cranks/levers work so nicely, the thing sounds awesome when fired up, and as i told the shop owner where i saw it, maybe when i retire and want to burn through some money i'll buy it. but not before then.

                  However, after reading about this chap trying to force me to buy it really ticks me off. i'll not buy his product at anytime by choice. what ever happened to capitalism?? if it is as great as he is trying to get everyone to believe, it will sell itself. (take bessey clamps for example--10-15 times the price of HF fbodies, but people buy em up like crazy.)


                  anyway, he can sit on his 8%


                  --not one of my nicer posts.
                  Last edited by Rob R; 10-11-2006, 08:01 AM.

                  Comment

                  • scorrpio
                    Veteran Member
                    • Dec 2005
                    • 1566
                    • Wayne, NJ, USA.

                    #10
                    Of course the cabinet saw is good - at almost four grand, it should be. If I were getting a saw for over 3000, I'd expect nothing but excellence, regardless of some newfangled brake or not.

                    And now, of course, the weasel has plasterd it all over with patents. For all I know, he might have patented the very concept of saw safety.

                    Making his own saw and selling is the right thing to do. Most places that have people working on tablesaws would get it to reduce their liability. If companies start wholesale upgrades to SawStop, enough to cost other makers more than 8% of their revenue, I can see sawmakers paying the royalty. However, it would be REAL interesting to see a lawsuit when someone using a sawstop gets nailed by kickback.

                    Penetrating hobbyist market is gonna be much tougher, however.

                    Comment

                    • germdoc
                      Veteran Member
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 3567
                      • Omaha, NE
                      • BT3000--the gray ghost

                      #11
                      OK guys, first of all as I recall the guy is/was a doctor, not a lawyer. Second, I'm not gonna defend his legal maneuvering, BUT we should applaud someone trying to invent something to make us safer and work toward making it available. We know from history sometimes it takes legal action or government mandates to get safety measures implemented--airbags, seatbelts, smog scrubbers, etc.

                      I have seen quite a few amputation injuries caused by power equipment. They are not pretty and are sometimes literally disabling. The MINIMUM cost for treatment of an amputation is several thousand dollars, and if infection sets in and more surgeries are required this can easily go into the tens of thousands of dollars.

                      Not to get all preachy, but if any of you out there don't have excellent health insurance you should think if you can afford such an injury or maybe you should take up another hobby, e.g., basket-weaving. Or maybe you should spend a thousand or so for the SawStop contractor saw and accessories--could be a very wise investment in your safety.

                      For the record, I don't have a SS saw yet, but I am seriously thinking of one in the near future. I am paranoid about injuries. And yes, I do have good insurance and am good friends with a number of hand surgeons, just in case.
                      Jeff


                      “Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing”--Voltaire

                      Comment

                      • LarryG
                        The Full Monte
                        • May 2004
                        • 6693
                        • Off The Back
                        • Powermatic PM2000, BT3100-1

                        #12
                        Originally posted by germdoc
                        OK guys, first of all as I recall the guy is/was a doctor, not a lawyer.
                        He's a patent attorney. The OP mentions this, as does other articles that Google turns up.

                        I think most of us are not against the idea of enhancing safety in the shop so much as we are having it crammed down our throats by a guy trying to literally have laws passed that will literally make him rich.
                        Larry

                        Comment

                        • MilDoc

                          #13
                          I agree with Larry. 8% of the price of the saw is way too much. I don't blame him for plastering it with patents. I'd do the same. But ... cum'on! Considering how many saws are sold, a 1% royalty would still make him rich!

                          Comment

                          • final_t
                            Veteran Member
                            • Nov 2003
                            • 1626
                            • .

                            #14
                            Originally posted by germdoc
                            ...
                            Well you opened the door, so:

                            Seatbelts were put in, but it was optional to use them, and nobody patented them to make a buck. However, the government decided, in their wisdom, to make it a crime to not wear a seatbelt. But that wasn't good enough, they decided that airbags are needed also.

                            The problem is that airbags kill people, esp. kids and short women like my wife.

                            Car makers tout how safe their cars are, and yet we have Fords rolling over because of faulty tires? Not really - the very poor driving of people who think because they are in a "safe box" can drive like a madman, yammering on their cellphones and yelling at their kids.

                            If you want to point a severed bleeding finger at someone, point it at Norm and his clones: they are the ones showing all these cuts WITH NO SAFETY GUARDS ON. The blame lays with them and WW shows/magazines - hey, they show it, it must be safe.

                            If you want to BUY a SawStop unit, more power to you. But if you are going to be acting like a careless fool around power tools and get terrible habits, who are you gonna sue/blame?

                            Comment

                            • Jeffrey Schronce
                              Veteran Member
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 3822
                              • York, PA, USA.
                              • 22124

                              #15
                              I wonder when we are going to see that $800 SawStop contractor saw. If it has SS technology, riving knife, that awesome blade guard and a decent fence it should sell like mad.
                              I believe that when SS puts out the $800 contractor saw they will see incredible sales. Schools will pay $800 for a saw, not $4000.

                              Comment

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