Question for the Mac Users

[crokett]

We are going to give my inlaws a computer for Christmas. It has to be self-contained, so I was thinking P3-class laptop. Then I was trying to decide Linux or Windows on it. I wanted Linux because I could lock it down and then not worry about allthe viruses, spyware etc they are sure to get. Plus all the apps are free. However there are ease of use considerations - they are as non-user as you can be.

Then someone suggested a Mac which I hadn't considered. This will be used mostly for email/internet. I was thinking iMac which can be had for around 100.00 here. Our budget can be up to 300.00. What Mac can I get that is selfcontained for that price? What SW does a new mac ship with? I'd be looking for doc editor, photo editor and web browser? Is there some sort of remote access SW I could install so I can dial in and check it - maybe ssh? Anythig else I'd need to consider?

[JSUPreston]

You may want to look at a refurbished MacMini. Apple has them for a little more than your budget. This one is a good deal. All you need is a monitor, USB Keyboard and mouse, which you could pick up just about anywhere. http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....8.1.5.1.1.5.0

As far as software goes, my understanding is that OpenOffice should be coming out with a native OSX version pretty soon. Then again, since you deal with Linux, you probably know a good bit about that software anyway.

I know it's more expensive than what you had in mind, but it may be worth it. As a side note, my wife has been running on a 6 1/2 year old Mac Powerbook, and has been very happy. The only apps that have crashed her system are...you guessed, Microsoft apps. She's running a G3-400 w/1GB RAM and is only now considering a new system, since any new software she gets would require a G4.

[crokett]

I was looking at one but when I say 'self contained' I mean as little cables coming out of it as possible. They are not technically inclined, plus the computer would have to be moved from where they spend the winter to where they spend the summer.

[ElRay]

I haven't priced used Macs in quite a while, but any iMac with a DVD drive (either the older CRT or the newer LCD) should fit the bill. Just make sure you get the system disks. That should include the iLife suite which is iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand.

The default "text editor" can deal with RTF files, but if you're looking for something with a little more oomph, you can install NeoOffice. That's the Oo.org core with a Java Front-End, but it is a little un-Mac-like (There is a Aqua version that's beta #3). You can tweak a setting in the non-Aqua version to get the menus out of the windows and up where they belong, but I'd have to Google to find that setting. Also, there's AbiWord (also a linux app), but I've run into a few glitches with some Word .DOCS.

There's an included e-mail client (Mail) and web browser (Safari), you can also download Eudora or Thunderbird and Firefox, Opera, etc.

And that's not even touching on all the GPL/BSD/FOSS stuff you could download and compile - XCode, the development environment, is free too.

Ray

[radhak]

for somebody who has been steeped in wintel machines all my life, i am now a huge supporter of Macs, particularly for the 'non-users'. they are the true boot-it-and-forget-about-it machines.

i bought my first and only mac - the 'lamp' shaped G4 in 2003, and it still thrills me. my kids are allowed to play on it anytime they want, as i know they cannot screw it up too much. it doesn't crash or hang. period.

where to buy : as JSUPreston has noted, refurbished macs from Apple are a good source. They are cheaper than 'new', but carry all the weight of the Apple guarantee. You could see the full list at
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...m=CertifiedMac

Or, if you have somebody in the family (or friends, or neighbourhood, or, ... you get the picture) who is a K-12 teacher, or college/university student, you could get serious discounts from Apple. Just try their site, and navigate to 'Where to buy' --> 'Apple for Education'. (If eligible, you could also check out 'Apple Government Stores', which offer similar discounts for Federal, state and local govt. Employees).
Mind you, all these discounts are steeper on software than hardware.

(Also, this mostly works on an honor system : you could just say you are a teacher at your local school, and you'd get the discount. I have not heard of anybody having to produce proof).
I am not suggesting anything here.

Now, which one to buy : the MacMini is cute, but bare - you supply the monitor, keyboard and mouse. It helps that any of your wintel accessories would work, but you'd need to consider it all the same.

For your present situation, I'd even consider a refurbished eMac. Refurbished, because it is discontinued, and not available to consumers today. (Schools still buy it). The emac has the machine and the monitor in one integrated piece, and has a glorious display, so worth considering.

And before you place the order, check out the authorized resellers : MacZone has served me well, as has MacMall. They are not allowed to reduce the sale price, but they do offer serious freebies (like upgraded memory) that might tilt the scales.

Software : the Mac's bundled software is generally great for most users. Doc editor, photo editor, are all there, and more than enough most of the times for the casual user. Safari is a great browser, and Firefox works just as well. MS Office for Mac is available, and even better than its Windows version, though pricey (of course, not for you, the 'K-12 teacher' ). Or you could just buy and load a Virtual PC, which'd allow you to run any windows app.

At the core of all this, underneath that great GUI, the heart of OS-X is that it is a Unix based OS : OS X is based on XFree86 4.3 and X11R6.6, with all its power waiting to be unleashed, though your non-users may not appreciate all that. And SSH is definitely part of it.


Btw : did you really see an iMac for $100? Or is that a typo?

[Anna]

For a VNC server, try this http://www.redstonesoftware.com/vnc.html. On the client side, I used Chicken of the VNC (http://sourceforge.net/projects/cotvnc/). I tried these out, just out of curiousity, and it also provided some opportunity to play a trick on my husband (he was really surprised to see his computer behaving suspiciously ).

We still have the original iMacs, and they're working just fine with Tiger. There are several versions of the CRT iMacs. If you can, look for at least 450 MHz processor with the slot-loading drives. I think there were some issues with upgrading the older, tray-loading versions with OS X. Also, max out on the RAM. OS X loves memory. I think most of the iMacs are either 640MB or 1 GB max. Adding the RAM is easy enough. I've also upgraded a couple old iMacs' hard drives. That was a little more involved (for a non-tech person like me), but not too hard. The stock HD were 6 GB to 20 GB, I think. You can upgrade them to a maximum of 120 GB, if I remember correctly.

If you really want them to minimize their cable clutter, add an Airport card. One problem you might encounter there is that the original Airport cards are getting harder to find retail. Craigslist used to have a bunch, and probably on eBay. It's 802.11b, but they're fine. I still use my white iBook and LCD iMac with those specs, and I haven't had problems. Otherwise, just plug the ethernet cable to their DSL (you are getting them broadband, right?? ).

For photo editing, the new version of iPhoto is actually pretty capable. I used to use Photoshop to edit my photos, but I can do a lot of it inside iPhoto now. The other thing I like about it is that it will import my RAW files directly from my Nikon D70s. Before that, I used to have an Automator script to convert RAW to tiff or jpg first. You'll also be surprised at just how easy it is to import files from virtually any camera.

The Mail client is okay. I've been using it for the last five years. I've heard of people complain some about it, but we never had problems. For web browsing, I've used Safari exclusively. I tried Firefox when Safari was still buggy, but I'm happy with Safari now. I downloaded a plug-in called Stand that allows me to manually load those annoying Flash ads if I want to. Otherwise, they're just grayed out.

For the browser and Mail, you might want to download Flip4Mac's software that allows you to watch wma files directly on the browser and mail client. There are also a bunch of plug-ins for Quicktime that will let you watch/listen to virtually any video/audio file formats.

I use a program called Little Snitch to monitor my network traffic. It informs me when a program tries to "call home" (I hate that), or if someone is trying to connect to my computer from outside (hasn't happened yet).

Other than those, well, it depends on what else they want to do.

[Anna]

Btw : did you really see an iMac for $100? Or is that a typo?

You'd be surprised at the deals you can get from Craigslist, actually. I've bought a G3 B&W for less than $150 there, way before the Intel announcement. There were also free iMacs at one point.

[crokett]

There were also free iMacs at one point.

Somebody offered 2 free iMacs on freecycle here last week. I didn;t get them but wish I still had the contct info to see if they are available

[JamesDad]

Mac is the best for the nontechnical user

My mom is 81 and I got her to buy a mac mini a few months ago, replacing an old windows based pc that she had been using. She is very, very, very, nontechnical and is still a bit afraid of computers. She likes the mac mini, finds it very easy to use, and likes the fact it does not clutter her desk like the other computer did. It is very small yet easy to plug in and use. The only cords coming out of the back are for the monitor [you buy it separately], power cord, internet connection [either dial up phone line or network cable] and the usb cord for the keyboard and for the mouse [unless you get a mac keyboard with a cool feature built in where you can plug the mouse in a port on the keyboard]. The only technical problem my mom has had with her mac is the powercord got wiggled out of the back while she was moving desk items around, and she got worried when she pushed the "on" button and the computer did not come on.
If they don't want a lot of cords or get confused when plugging a lot of things in, the mac mini would be a good choice.
JamesDad's wife

[russd]

another option

Not self contained, But I'd look for a G3 B&W. Around here( Washington D.C) area you can get a complete system for $50.00 to $100.00 and it will run OS 9 (which I still use) or OS X.

http://www.lowendmac.com/ppc/g3c.shtml

Software

http://www.pure-mac.com/

[Anna]

If I remember correctly (it's been a couple years since I was in the "upgrade everything in your path" mode), the B&W G3 has two revisions. If you are going in that direction, get the Rev2. It will also let you upgrade the CPU later to a G4, if you can get the CPU cheaply. Helps a lot if the in-laws ever decide to get into video editing.

[dlminehart]

Check http://www.lowendmac.com/deals.shtml for a listing of current deals in used Macs from various reputable sources. BTW, the remarks about VNC are quite pertinent, if you'll need to provide some remote tech support. I use OSXVNC on the Mac to be remotely controlled, and Chicken of the VNC to do the controlling. Free, and pretty reliable.

[crokett]

Sounds like what I really need is the Mac OS on a PC - best of both worlds - cheap HW and a reliable and easy to use OS. Too bad I can't do that unless I get pirated SW or buy one of the new ones I don't have the money for.

I've always thought it was a mistake that Apple didn't sell an x86 version of the Mac OS for PC. More than likely I'd be using it and might have bought a Mac along the way. What always kept me from Macs was I couldn't roll my own.

[Anna]

When Apple first came out with the Intel Macs, a bunch of users were determined to get Windows running on the new Macs. A contest was organized, culminating in a $10K reward for anyone who can figure out how to boot Windows into a Mac. Within a week of someone coming up with a pretty-buggy-but-workable solution, Apple released BootCamp, which is a more elegant way of doing that. Now there's also Parallels, which is a virtual environment and precludes having to re-boot, and pretty soon we'll have Leopard that is rumored to allow fast user switching between Windows and OS X.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, with a determined enough group of talented people (well, okay, hackers), OS X will probably be able to boot into a PC. I just don't know why anyone will want to do that, though. The price difference isn't as much anymore. There have been a lot of price comparisons where it's Apples to apples, so to speak. That is, you have to compare prices for comparable systems, instead of entry level systems. Apple's entry level is in the $500+ range, but if you upgrade your $300 Dell to be comparable to those Macs, you'll find that the price difference isn't much at all. In several cases, the Macs actually come out ahead.

One final note: Even if the Mac costs slightly more, let me just say that the peace of mind you get from not having to worry about spyware/adware crap is priceless. I used to clean up friends' and family's PCs. I had a "kit" of all the spyware/adware removal programs, plus monitoring programs, etc, burned into a CD that I gave every one of them. Finally, after the umpteenth time of doing this for free and killing off entire weekends, I told them that I'll continue to help them IF and ONLY IF they buy Macs. After the initial learning curve ("Where's the START button?"), it's been nice and peaceful around here lately, and I get to spend entire weekends in my new shop.

If you just want to test the water, get a used Mac. We have Macs from 1998 that are running the latest OS (husband's business only runs Macs). You can't do heavy-duty video editing on a G3, but G4s with enough RAM will work just great. (I do video editing on my Powerbook G4. My G3 iBook is hooked up to my film translation equipment.) Try to get a Quicksilver edition if you can. With the Intel Macs so cheap, I think you should be able to get a G4 in the $300 range now.

SO GET THE MAC ALREADY!