Children Gone Bad

[cabinetman]

Reading Ken's post about the pit bulls and their owners brings to mind basic discipline. It makes me sick and tired to hear parents on interview shows or in the newspaper saying that their children are "out of control". Whose fault is that? The parents of those kids who take guns and knives to school are never really interviewed about what their kid did, and why. I would love to see their stupid faces on TV trying to explain.

By the time the kid is old enough to win a trip to the "boot camp" thing, the parents are ranting "I can't control him/her". There is this teenager swearing and punching the parents. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! If I did that when I was a teenager, my father would have punched my face clean off!!!!. If I would have threatened to call the police, he would have punched me again!!! As far back as I can remember, it seems that it was an accepted practice to discipline your children at home. Spanking was permitted. There were also less disorderly teenagers. How 'bout that! When I was in elementary school and high school, kids would never bring knives (at least that we knew about) or especially guns. I don't remember any stories about kids and guns back then.

The problems with disciplining children and pets has to start when it's a baby or a puppy. Maybe the parents waited too long to try. My father always told me that when I was able to kick his A$$, I would have enough sense not too. The younger the child is the more prone to learning respect and respond to discipline. Parents can't wait until there is a problem to start working on a solution.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[bmyers]

It's a different world out there Cab-Man. When you were a kid, if you went to school with a black eye because your dad "disciplined" you, your teachers would have asked if you learned your lesson. Today the teacher would call CPS and have you arrested instead. I think these days, most people including myself don't hit their kids. For one thing, it just doesn't make sense. How can you tell a very young child it's not ok to hit other kids by hitting them? Plus, after you feel horrible and a dialog about what happened and what the child did wrong is difficult to have after you spank them.

BUT it seems many parents struggle with how to discipline their kids without beating the snot out of them. It can be done, but discipline cannot be ignored. I think if parents watch a little more Nanny-911 and a little less Jerry Springer things would change. Come to think of it, why is it there 2 shows on TV like Nanny911 and 200 shows like Jerry Springer? Hmm..

Parents DO need to be involved with their children’s’ lives a little more though. Babysitting kids with video games, TV and free range internet surfing disconnects the parent from the child, another bad thing. Some parents I think need to have the crap smacked out of instead, not the kids. The children are innocent and only have what you gave them. They are little sponges, what goes in, stays in until they're under pressure. Then it all comes out..

You really don’t get a grade on how you did as a parent until your kids are parents. Unless of course your kid walks in to school one day in a black trench coat and an AK-47, then yeah you’ve failed. You’re thread might be better named as “Parents gone bad”.

[cabinetman]

Those parents are the same ones that can't wait for their kids to go to school because that's where they think they will learn discipline.

Respecting the onset of discipline reminds me of a ninth grade mechanical drawing class I had in school. The teacher, who had forearms the size of my waist, had a discipline method for keeping us in order. He had one of those hand exercisers like the one with the little spring and two wooden handles. Except the one he had was made from a car spring. The first day in class he asked the largest, and strongest looking guy in class to come to the front of the class and handed this thing to him and asked him to click the handles together just once with one hand. Kid could hardly budge the handles. The teacher took it back and put it in his own hand and it went click, click click, click click click, click, click. After that, he had our complete attention.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[Warren]

Keep in mind that some people are just miswired. Some are just psychopaths and sociopaths. As a cop I saw kids from the same family, raised nearly the same. One kid would be getting good grades and applying himself, while the other was constantly in trouble.

The problem is that people are always looking to blame someone other than the criminal. Sometimes the perp is just plain bad. No excuses, just bad. And, being an amatuer historian I've found that no one is doing anything to anyone that hasn't been done before, many times. Kids murdering, mass killings, rape, etc, are nothing new. Sure the weapons change and instant news makes it seem like there's more of it. But, there's nothing new. It's just people being people. I don't think that people today are any more or less brutal than their forebearers. There's just more of them in the same amount of space.

Years ago society killed those types for the protection of others. Now, we spend money, time and effort to try and "save" them so that they can be returned to society as a smarter, better trained psycho or sociopath.

[scorrpio]

The big problem is exposure. I might be keeping my own in line, but as soon as the kid is out to school or out playing with other kids...

They learn all too quickly that should their parents displease them in any way, they just need to go talk to a teacher or nearest cop, and they'll be taken away from their abusive Mom and Dad handed over to nice rich folks (like Angelina Jolie) who will let them do whatever they want. At least that's the version they get to learn. And parents, having heard a share of horror stories about kids who sued their parents into poverty and jail on a whim, are afraid to apply any kind of discipline.

I dunno, there really should be a retaliatory option for parents - threatening the kid to call the service that'll take the kid away.

[bmyers]

I dunno, there really should be a retaliatory option for parents - threatening the kid to call the service that'll take the kid away.

That's funny. My mom used to tell me she was going to sell me to the gypsy’s next time they were in town if I didn't straighten up.

I think that's still legal only now you got ebay...

But seriously they do have such a thing in NY. It's calls PINS? Or something like that. Parents can petition to have their kids put away and just have the state pay for their mistakes..

[scorrpio]

That's funny. My mom used to tell me she was going to sell me to the gypsy’s next time they were in town if I didn't straighten up.
But seriously they do have such a thing in NY. It's calls PINS? Or something like that. Parents can petition to have their kids put away and just have the state pay for their mistakes..

I actually was thinking more along the lines of a prearrangemnt with CPS. Have them come, pick up the kid, take to whatever shelter they take real abuse victims, and all that. See how long till the kid is screaming for his Mommy and Daddy and is willing to do ANYTHING to go back home.

[gsmittle]

Wow.

So many things run through my head when I think about this...

Since I teach in a public high school, I've seen both the best and the worst of teenagers, sometimes from the same kid.

We educators are expected to teach, counsel, mediate, parent, coach, understand, discipline, etc. any and all comers. I've seen too many parents abdicate their responsibility to discipline their children and then bail them out when they get in trouble. Sometimes the parents are the first to blame everyone but themselves and their children.

Sometimes I know if I call a parent about a disciplinary infraction (I'm supposed to call the parent every time I write up a kid) that the kid will get a SEVERE beating. Sometimes nothing will happen.

Schools, IMO, are only one-half of the educational system. Parents are the most important factor in their child's education. With an involved parent, the kid will normally do quite well, have fewer discipline problems, etc. It's the kids with disconnected parents that in my experience end up with discipline problems.

OTOH, sometimes the only place the kid gets any positive reinforcement is in my classroom. I had a guy my first quarter of teaching (I was a long-term sub for a teacher on maternity leave at the end of the year) who was suspended more often than not. After a few weeks I noticed that we was in class more and suspended less. One day he told me, "I'm trying to be good because then I GET to come to your class." He managed to stay out of trouble and graduate and now owns a body shop and is a productive member of society. I'm not saying I'm the only reason he isn't in jail, but him knowing that there was at least one person in the world who would treat him with respect made a difference.

My philosophy is that my classroom is, as Dr. Phil puts it (and the only time I'll ever quote Dr. Phil): "a soft place to fall." That doesn't mean my students get to run wild. In fact I'm more strict than a lot of my collegues (I won't accept late work, I insist on writing every day, etc.) but my students know that I'll listen to what they're saying and I won't step on them for having an honest opinion. They do hate it when I press them to explain why they think the things they do, though. Hee hee.

Maybe I'm an idealist.... However, the one kid who said he and his homies were going to "take care of me" was bounced out of my class big-time. Word gets around...

Sorry for the lengthy post, but this is one I think about a lot. I wish I had an easy answer. So many of these kids don't have anyone in their lives who gives a ****.

g.

[Warren]

Parenting is a 24/7 job, a very tough job to do right. Teaching right from wrong starts as soon as a child is born. Parents have to learn wilful behavior and be able to differentiant between that and acceptable behavior. There is a heck of lot more to it than providing food and shelter, and a loving environment. Instilling a knowledge of right and wrong, the idea that actions have consequences, and perhaps the hardest, be willing to provide the consequences when called for.


Still, you can do everything right, but if the child is wired wrong you are in for a long, tough, sorrowful time. Not all people are salvagable, the trick is being able to differentiate between those whom are and those whom are not. Society hasn't figured out how to do that with any degree of success and choses, rightfully or not, to err on the side which endangers society the most. And, don't look at me! That's why I had no desire to be a judge.

Still, I'm a fan of the three strikes laws and, once a person has demonstrated a total inability to live in a civilized society without causing harm to others, the death penalty. Animals which endanger people are rapidly removed. A country which allows for the removal of unwanted embroyos and late term abortions should have no compunction against the permanent removal of demonstably psychopathic and sociopathic people, adults or minors.


One last observation. Life sentences are not usually that. And, when they are, someone is likely to come along and build a case for a pardon long after witnesses and evidence are no longer available. The best example of this when,Norman Mailer discovered imprisoned killer Jack Henry Abbott had learned to put two sentences together. He managed, with the help of a lot of well meaning though misdirected people to get the guy sprung from jail. He killed again and now is back in jail. As far as I'm concerned Mailer should be there with him as well as the officials which fell for Mailer's scam. At least Abbott had the selfawareness to hang himself in jail.

[Hoover]

I have a theory that the reason "Children gone bad" has a lot to do with their family life. Some kids have only one parent around, divorced or separated family, a single parent trying to make things go holding down two jobs and no one around for guidance.
Messed up parent(s )who are either alcoholics or drug addicts, who are stoned most of the time, can't even control their own miserable life. The child knows that he or she can do whatever they want, and not be disciplined for their actions.
With a recipe like that, no wonder their lives are spinning out of control. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

[JBCrooks]

When my children were born I realized that my only real purpose in life is to raise them to the best of my ability. Any law or rule or code that limits my ability to do that is simply to be ignored. If a small child was wandering close to a dangerous drop, would you obey the "keep off the grass" sign or go and get him? If I feel that one of my children need a spanking then they will get one. That being said, corporal punishment should not always be the answer just as it should not never be the answer. I will give this example of a time when a spanking just didn't cut it.

My son went to my parents house. In one of the drawers he found a stack of cash and helped himself to a $50 bill. The next day, when my father took the money to pay a man. He was short the $50 and suffered that embarressment. It was some days later that we discovered what had happened. I could NOT spank him for that one. (I might not have stopped at that time) My son lost all television/computer/game privileges for a month starting immediately. That weekend I had a dumptruck load of mulch delivered to the corner of my property. I handed my son a 1 gallon bucket and told him to get busy. By the end of the weekend, he had earned back the $50 that he could then return to my father with an appology for stealing. I don't think he will steal again.

My children KNOW that punishment will be swift and sure if they get out of line, and as a result I very seldom have to punish them. I can meet with their teachers and be proud of my children. Any law that says a child should be handled differently is cruel to the parents, cruel to the public, and devistating to the child.

[Warren]

JBCrooks: You don't need my validation, but the punishment was well reasoned and swift. The personal embarrassment of having to facing his Grandfather was probably what he will remember longest. It was probably the hardest thing he's ever done. Good luck!

Hoover, I think your second paragraph is close to the mark. I've known too many single parents who have raised exemplary children to put blame there. It's the quality of the parenting, single, divorced or otherwise , that most affects a child.

Too many parents are just not willing to put in the time and effort required for their children. They are too selfish make the enormous effort that children require. Their needs come first and formost before the kids.

Being a single parent is tough, particularly if the absent parent is unwilling to shoulder any responsiblity. But, I've known single parents who refuse to sleep in on weekends, work two jobs and devote every available minute to insure the well being of their children. There are just too many parents who are too hedonistic to be raising children.

Still, you can do everything right and still raise an antisocial misfit; or worse, a psychotic killer, serial rapist, or what have you. Is it genetic or a problem with brain developement? I've seen enough research to know that even the experts are at odds with the causes. Still, when the system gets a hold of one, the system has a responsibility to insure that society is protected from it.

[rosesunkist]

I agree that 95% of the time bad kids are the direct result of bad parenting.
My mother was very strict with me and my brother. She was a single mother working full-time with two boys that fought constantly. Our punishments were often swift and severe.

She had a big wooden stirring spoon that she broke on my rear, but the belt was the norn. Then she also had a small oar that she would use when the situation warranted it, and ONLY when it was necessary.

I talk to her every day, and I am ever thankful for her being strict with me, because it taught me right from wrong. Yeah the spankings hurt, but it was much more painful when she would do nothing except give me THE LOOK. Still scares me, lol. She taught me to take responsibility for my actions, even when it meant I would not be able to sit for a few days. I love her so much for doing what she had to do and not was "acceptable" or convenient at the time.

Like her, I am quite strict with my kids (son:7, daughters:3 and 9 mos). Not really with my 9m.o., discipline starts at 1y.o. But I also use the psychological aspect with my kids. I have the house rules, EVERYBODY goes by the rules. I mean everybody, including guests, no exceptions. The boy was 3 when we got married, she was a single mother and he needed structure and discipline very much. He was a major hellion...."Shut up momma!","Stupid momma!","F-you momma"....BAD. I straightened him out quick.

Now almost 7, he knows the rules and I occasionally need to discipline him, rarely spankings anymore. Because he knows the rules and chooses to go by them. At least when I am around. When it is just momma, all bets are off. She does not believe in discipling them (ignore bad behavior and it will go away is her philosophy), and when she tries to get them to do what she wants, they just laugh at her. They never even try that with me, all I have to do is give them the look and they will stop dead in their tracks. I got him trained where, riding in the van, I would give him the nod and he would be out like a light, shake my head and he would not go to sleep whatsoever. My wife can't figure it out. He respects me and does not argue with what I say, and I give him more liberties. The more mature they act, the more freedom they receive.

My belief is to be strict so they know the rules, encouraging so they are sure of themselves, speak to them like adults so they think like adults, teach them to take responsibility for their actions, not afraid to speak their mind and be ready to back it up, to put others first but not be a pushover. I am trying to raise them to be good, moral, upstanding citizens. (But we all manage to screw that up somehow, don't we?)

I still ask my mother for advise on occasion, but I told her not to give it unless it was solicited, we just respect each other like that. Having kids is not a full-time job. Raising GOOD kids correctly is.

[messmaker]

Dicipline???

The problem I see is that we lack a "one size fits all solution". I have one daughter who can be controlled by a stern word. I have a second daughter who would ignore electric shock to get what she wants. I love them both but I find the second one more captivating. I think it is not as complicated as we make it.

Show them the way.
Teach them proper manners.
Teach them that each choice comes with a price.
Don't lash out in anger.
Tell them you are sorry when you are wrong.

[jseklund]

Very interesting. I haven't had a chance to read all the replies yet, but I've seen some great replies.

I have a friend who is a music teacher in our school system. When we were in college he would substitute teach for history, or whatever. He told me once that if you are an adult in a classroom full of third-graders and they get out of hand, they are not the problem- the teacher is.

I think it ties into some of the other threads here- people are not accountable and they don't take responsibility. I remember being in high school and hearing the ads with Charles Barkley saying, "I am not a role model." I remember thinking, "I hate to break it to you Charles- but you are." We are ALL role models. Most of us just don't realize it, and it is just another way for us to skirt accountability and responsibility.

My question is this:

Everyone I talk to, and almost everywhere I go people all think the same things. "People are stupid." "People aren't responsible." "People aren't caring." "People don't do what they should." "People ...whatever"

If everyone is saying this? Why are we still this way? Why aren't we smarter and more responsible? Why don't we care more and do the right thing?