Loaning Out Tools

[MilDoc]

[Rant On]
And, while I'm on the subject, in my numerous court experiences with over a couple of hundred attorneys, One thing I realized is that most are incompetent. IMHO maybe 10% are any good at all. The American "So-Called" Justice System is a system crafted by lawyers in Congress for the benefit of lawyers. This is not meant to disparage tax attorneys, patent attorneys, etc. Just defense or personal injury attorneys, one of whom bragged to me how he had to do little work, just threaten a lawsuit and get paid his 30%. Yeah, great system.
[/End Rant]

[25]

3. "As she removed the lid, the entire contents spilled..." Pretty clumsy.

Very. You missed the best part about her holding it with her knees as she tried to remove the lid.

5. Of course when poured it's not fit for consumption. Any one in a restaurant knows that.

This is true.

6. The plaintiffs' expert stated that at 180 deg. 3rd deg burns will result in 2-7 seconds. Cooled to 155 it would have given her time to avoid a burn. Bunk. At 152 deg it takes about 2-3 sec to produce a 3rd deg burn, as shown in studies on volunteers, especially soaked into her sweatpants. At 180 deg, given it's soaking into her sweatpants, burn would have been almost instantaneous.

Are you just pointing out that he was wrong? This one seems to point more that if it had been at the stated temperature she would have been burned worse. I hope those volunteers got paid well.

"McD's also stated that customers know coffee is hot..." Well, Dee Dee Dee...

Very.

And, of course, the temp of coffee at the local McD's had dropped to 155 degrees - still hot enough to cause a 3rd degree burn if you're dumb enough to remove the lid while holding it between your legs!

Yes.


The rest I didn't qoute I will just agree since I really don't know(and am just being ignorant about it right now).

I didn't disagree with the fact that it was her own fault. I don't think I made that clear in my previous post. So I will say it now, it was her own fault not McD's.

I just wanted to point out that there is generally more to most of the stories you hear on the news, but then the attention span of this country would get bored if they had to hear about any of the details.

Also, even with the car stopped I don't see how someone could remove the lid without spilling some while held between their legs. I can't even remove it normally while not sitting behind the wheel without spilling it.

[25]

[Rant On]
And, while I'm on the subject, in my numerous court experiences with over a couple of hundred attorneys, One thing I realized is that most are incompetent. IMHO maybe 10% are any good at all. The American "So-Called" Justice System is a system crafted by lawyers in Congress for the benefit of lawyers. This is not meant to disparage tax attorneys, patent attorneys, etc. Just defense or personal injury attorneys, one of whom bragged to me how he had to do little work, just threaten a lawsuit and get paid his 30%. Yeah, great system.
[/End Rant]

Sadly, I have to agree.

[MilDoc]

25 -- tried to quote you but it didn't work

No, I didn't miss the point that she held it between her knees. My point - at her age, a spill was probable. And what I didn't mention, at her age skin is thinner, increasing the risk or a severe burn.

Yes, the plaintiff's expert was wrong. But then again, I'm sure he was paid for his testimony. There are web sites that will link you to any "expert." Pay enough, get what you want. Prosecutor's are not above this either, as witness "Doctor Death."

The study I mentioned was conducted in the 50's if I recall. Volunteers allowed themselves to be burned. I hope they were well paid too.

Yes, it was her own fault. Coffee is hot. Especially if brewed at the appropriate temp. Thus, it was not McD's fault, unless you want to pay good $$$ for lousy coffee. But their attorneys obviously didn't present a good case. OR the "jury of her peers" felt she "deserved something." And that's the problem with our "justice" system. Example of a case I testified in:

A man installed his own water heater. Violated codes and installed it on the floor. Then proceeded to clean his tools in gasoline a few feet from the water heater. The fumes exploded. He got burned. Sued the water heater manufacturer. So, what would you rule? (No, he lost.)

No question there is often more to most stories than you read in the papers. But the "legal" web sites are rife with "logical" explanations. It can't possibly be the victim's fault. So now we have warnings: Don't use your hair dryer while in the shower. Lawn mowers have safeguards so you can't be dumb and cut your toes off (actually a good idea - some product liabilty suits get good results because users are morons).

Dee Dee Dee.

So, as you said if it was her own fault, why should McD's pay her anything? Other than the fact that, unlike most countries, the USA allows this kind of cr**p? Anyone have any idea what this kind of so-called "justice" adds to everything you buy?

Many suits are settled out of court. Much cheaper to pay $100,00 then try to defend a case for many times more.

[LinuxRandal]

My cardinal rules
(1) I don't loan out my power tools
(2) I don't loan money (anymore)
(3) I certainly would not loan out my wife
(4) I won't loan out any of my guns for any reason
(5) NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, even think about asking to borrow
Silverado 1500 HD crewcab pickup truck! That won't happen!
Never a lender or borrower be...you will be happier!
eezlock

Well to start, I do have to disagree with number 2, it's a GREAT way, to get people to disappear . (and sometimes, that is for the best!)

Gramps and dad taught me to keep "junk" handtools around for the loaners. It also taught you who respected your tools and stuff. As for power tools, I loan SOME out occassionally to REALLY GOOD and TRUSTWORTHY friends and relatives, then to some (relative, that can use a screwdriver and a hammer) with supervision.
As for loaning out wives, I can tell by the percentages I know, that it's not up to the husband.

[jabe]

I rarely loan tools out, only to trustworthy friends who know how to use it.

I agree we have become a country of litigations. But it's because we keep electing lawyers to run our government. We need to elect more people with common sense.
The National Attorney Assn. held a convention in Honolulu this past summer. They had planned a surfing contest but decided to cancel it because.... you guessed it they were afraid someone would get hurt and sue. True story, they cannot trust themselves HA HA! This story was in our local news and the radio stations had great time with this story.

[scorrpio]

A friend of mine works in construction. He and his coworkers borrow each other's tools all the time. But they have a rule: mess up another's tool, you keep it and buy the owner the same (or of same quality) tool brand new.

[jseklund]

So many good things to respond to. I'll try to put this in an orderly fashion...but I don't know if it's possible

For the record there is a lot more to the Hot Coffee than as heard from the press(big surprise here...). I don't want to advocate that the person was smart in the first place for keeping the coffee in their lap but the coffee was being intentionally super heating the coffee, so much to the point that the person suffered 3rd degree burns. Nor was this the first person to be seriously burned by the coffee.

This was not a simple case of "user error" but a combination of faults from various parties.

More details found here: [link=http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm]Click Me[/link]

Just wanted to point out that this case is not a black and white case of people trying to shift the blame.

As a note my wife is a teacher and the way that people are getting trying to shift the blame from their darlings to the teacher is rather funny, to bad they don't want to get their child to actually work for a grade, since they are infalliable.

I think that a lot of things are more complex than they seem. If they weren't, there wouldn't be any confusion. Or at least, we can make them SEEM more complex than they are....

Look at the bike example brought up in this thread. On one hand, it's wrong to let your dog run freely. On the other hand, there are dogs in nature, and cyclists should know the area they are going through. We all take risks. Usually the stupid cases are caused by two planes of stupidity meeting. (not saying bike riders are stupid in this case). However, if someone else's stupidity causes me that much problem, then I am pretty ****ed stupid for not accounting for it. Smart people plan for the stupidity. Warren Buffett has made a fortune off of other people's stupidity.


MilDoc- I like your analysis. I think the problem is that everyone is a victim. However, companies are viewed as tyrants. It's ok for me to sue a company because I'm only taking money from some intangible being. No one realizes that there are people who have invested their life savings in the company you are suing, and you are basically suing thousands or millions of shareholders. Now...we could go down the road of corporate corruption too. Corporations, and the cheaters who run SOME of them, have another (although related) set of problems.

I don't agree though. STANDARD home brewed coffee IS about 150 degrees F. You just happen to have a better brewer. While coffee SHOULD be brewed at 190-205 degrees, few brewers actually achieve this. This is a PART of the reason people always think coffee tastes better when you get it out. Professional brewers almost always brew at these temps.

However, following your analysis, we see that the real outcome is another case of the stupid needing a sign and protection. We are all doomed to bad coffee if we go down this road. Brewers won't brew at 190+ anymore, restaurants won't serve above 120, and coffee will suck. It's time to short Starbucks I guess! haha.

It's like when you see a sign that tells you not to do something that is fairly obvious. USUALLY, it's there because someone did something stupid. Our society focuses too much on the lowest common denominator, an unnatural occurance. We see it in our schools, on the streets, in labor relations, everywhere. In nature, Darwins observations rule- only the strong survive. Does this mean that we should follow this literally? No, but we should expect more from people, instead of lowering our standards to make it easier. Everyone can become strong- I believe we all have strengths. We are taught to focus on our weaknesses though, and because of this many of us never find anything that we are strong at.

Having said all of this, I realize that society needs to become stronger willed, have higher standards, improve education, etc. However, I don't know many people who aren't talking about the stupidity of other people on a daily basis. It's another form of lowering our standards. We all talk about how stupid EVERYONE is, and accept it. I am starting to at least TRY to make the decision that I will become more focused on the good than the bad. A lot of times, it's up to me to interpret the evidence- and many of my filters aren't filters I have chosen- they have been handed to me by society. The "everyone ELSE is stupid" filter is one of them I believe. Although, it does come in handy in a lot of situations.

This is kind of a rant, and I'm not sure I am making sense....so I'll move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eezlock
My cardinal rules
(1) I don't loan out my power tools
(2) I don't loan money (anymore)
(3) I certainly would not loan out my wife
(4) I won't loan out any of my guns for any reason
(5) NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, even think about asking to borrow
Silverado 1500 HD crewcab pickup truck! That won't happen!
Never a lender or borrower be...you will be happier!
eezlock


Well to start, I do have to disagree with number 2, it's a GREAT way, to get people to disappear . (and sometimes, that is for the best!)

Gramps and dad taught me to keep "junk" handtools around for the loaners. It also taught you who respected your tools and stuff. As for power tools, I loan SOME out occassionally to REALLY GOOD and TRUSTWORTHY friends and relatives, then to some (relative, that can use a screwdriver and a hammer) with supervision.
As for loaning out

EEZLock- you are actually in AGREEMENT with him on #2. HE says, "Never loan money". You see it as a way to get people to disappear. I don't loan money either- I give it. Loaning money always leads to problems. If you don't expect it back- then you only benefit. Some true friends will return it, and I will have money that I thought had disappeared coming back- icing on the cake. Other people, as you said, will disapper- which is another benefit. I don't want them around to take more $$ from me anyway. Not really an original idea on my part- I've seen it in a lot of other places, but it's true IMO.

[ejs1097]

I must be young and niave(sp). I usually give someone 1 shot at lending a tool if my better judgement thinks they'll treat it with respect. So far I haven't had any problems. That said I won't lend by BT3100 or anything like that.

I did lend my brad nailer and compressor to a neighbor hanging trim. I gave him a long enough saftey warning and lesson how to use it and how to shoot yourself. It's like shooting a gun with a new person, assume they know nothing and insult them with basics if you have to.

If a neighbor borrowed a circ saw and accused me of cutting their finger, "Here's your sign" he obvisously knew how a circ saw functioned if he asked for it in the first place.

[MilDoc]

I personally like the lawyer who sued (and won millions) a flu vaccine maker when someone got the flu. Now hardly any flue vaccine's are made in US for that exact reason. 1 year later the lawyer ran for Vice President and accused the President for Flu vaccine shortages.

Total fabrication ... check your facts:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/e/edwards-flu.htm