Floyd Landis tests positive for doping

[PJC]

I'm not even joking....

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf200...ory?id=2531225

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ing/index.html

[just4funsies]

Will they EVER learn?

[430752]

His mom said it best:

From AP news, a quote of his mother:

"Arlene Landis, his mother, said Thursday that she wouldn't blame her son if he was taking medication to treat the pain in his injured hip, but "if it's something worse than that, then he doesn't deserve to win.""

I (we?) hope its not true, but if so, I'm not sticking up for this guy. Especially with the recent past history/warnings from the tour and cycling federations. If he did it, he should be publicly stripped of his jersey, his tires punctured, and banned from something for some time. This calls into disgrace the tour, american cyclists (yes, there are others, but this one is american) and even lance.


On the other hand, this whole thing raises an interesting idea. Why not remove doping/drug prohibitions. Let us even the playing field by allowing everyone to run whatever they want. Then, no more claims of unfair advantage. You can destroy your body for victory or try to get it all natural. Maybe two classes: au natural and enhanced. You think this is an odd suggestion, but I've always had a problem with limiting drug use in professional athletes. Amatuers I can understand, but people who do this for profit? Why not dope up to make better performance? Professional politicians take soft money and pac money. They're enhanced from "traditional" fund raising. Lawyers always seek that one seminar or training course to give them the edge that others usually can't get (not always open to the public). Doctors try to get a new device or learn a new technique to enchance their performance. I hazard to argue that all professional whatevers are always trying to enhance their performance. Just in sports it is labeled illegal.

And if you say it is illegal cuz it harms the body, then why don't professional symphonies ban pianists who cut the webbing between their fingers in order to get better reach? That's a performance enhancing body mutilation that is not only tolerated, but generally encouraged to get to the next level. If you say it is because kids emulate professionals, then I'm willing to wager that more kids study piano seriously,pay for lessions, etc., with hopes of achieving greatness, than study cycling seriously with hopes of doing the tour.

well, that's my .02. Despite my stand on drug use in professional sports, if Landis did this, and it is clearly illegal in his sport at the present time, then shame on him.

curt j.

[91FE]

whoa... what happened to being innocent until proven guilty???

[pushrod]

Well, everybody said that his Stage 17 ride was a ballsey performance!

Pianists really cut the webbing betwen their fingers!?

Is that a large scale (HAR!) problem?

[JR]

Curt,
You make some good points, but I will argue some of them as well.

If Landis is proven to have taken drugs illegally he will be banned entirely from cycle racing for two years, plus two years' further ban from the ProTour, the elite league. These are prescribed bans, with very little wiggle room. It would happen immediately after the the B sample coroborating test, if it does indeed coroborate the A sample test. His title and awards from the TdF would be stripped, with those who finished behind him moving up in the results.

Your idea of a wide-open pro scheme is one that is mentioned quite frequently. It has a certain free-market sensibility that sounds appealing at first blush. Upon further inspection there are a number of major flaws with it, IMO.

Your comment about how many kids are into competitive cycling is not really on point. Cycling is part of the Olympic drugs regime, as are track, archery (strangely this sport has had a number of drugs violations!), minor-league/international baseball, soccer, tennis, skiing etc. So we're talking about the influence of drugs on every active kid on the planet, whether he plays the piano or not.

Legalizing drugs would mean that an athlete who wanted to compete at the highest levels would have to dope. The effects of doping can be very debilitating, viz. Lyle Alzado, Ken Caminiti, et al. In cycling there is a huge salary disparity within the ProTour ranks of around 500 athletes. Top riders, like Lance, can command a 1M-2M euro salary, plus endorsements, appearance fees, etc. Lesser athletes in that league may make only 50K euros. The temptation to move up through the use of drugs would be exreme. They may be "forced" to take durgs by team management so the team can stay competitive. Also, those athletes in your "amateur" league who wanted to move up to the pros would be sorely tempted to use drugs to get visible results.

The ProTour has been recently organized, with a view to increasing sponsorship and TV revenue through the presentation of high-level races throughout the year. It sort of emulates the Formula 1 model. Having open drug use would complicate that initiative immensely. No family-oriented advertiser could pony up due to the negative connotations of their afiliation with dopers. So that leaves out big-bucks advertisers like McDonald's, Coke, J&J, Ford and so on. Extend the logic to tv and you're left with a pro wrestling level of competition on Channel 13, if you're lucky. There have already been a some sponsors leave due these problems - Liberty Security, Phonak, ONCE to name a few.

Finally, there's gambling. The sports books in the USA don't cover cyclilng, but in Europe it's very popular. The Belgian punters, in particular, are mad about cycling. Introducing drugs into the equation presents the opportunity to sway the odds dramatically, which in turn opens the door those who would influence these things. You're in New Jersey, you know what I mean (wink wink).

I guess you can tell I've thought about this a bit. I'm no prude about drugs. For instance, I can't for the life me understand why pot is on the banned list. But these cocktails of steroids, HGH, etc. are really dangerous. Banning their use is the right thing to do. IMHO.

JR

[LarryG]

After chastising (mildly, I hope) PJC for the wording of his thread title, I now find that I myself may have overstated the situation when I wrote, "... a high level of testosterone." Not to make excuses, exactly, but virtually all the stories and headlines I've read today have been screaming exactly that: HIGH level of testosterone. However, there are now some reports floating around that Floyd Landis' testosterone level was actually LOWER than normal.

It is entirely reasonable to assume that a positive test result means a high level of whatever is being tested for. However, if you read carefully the first paragraph of the official statement from Phonak, the team for which Landis rides, the word "high" is nowhere to be found:

"The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI of an unusual [emphasis added] level of Testosteron/Epitestosteron ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France."

Further, nowhere in the balance of the statement is the word "high" used. The specific issue appears to be the T/E ratio. I have seen some speculation (how well-informed, I do not know) that all the water Landis drank during Stage 17, or even the now-famous beer he had after the disappointment of his Stage 16 meltdown, might have skewed the test results.

Which is not to say there's not a problem. For whatever reason, the test result was considered positive. These latest revelations, if true, basically just fall into the "The plot thickens ..." category. Along with the rest of the cycling world, I'll be axiously awaiting the outcome of the "B" sample test ...

[PJC]

After chastising (mildly, I hope) PJC for the wording of his thread title

Don't sweat it Larry, I did not take offense at all. When I initially posted the title, the "Breaking News" headline on CNN.com said "Floyd Landis tests positive for doping". I couldn't have come up with a word like "doping" on my own .

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I was over in Lancaster county in the Amish/Mennonite community today picking up my 8" Shop Fox Jointer (overt gloat) and I really hope this is not true, if not for then for the community. There are signs, banners, etc everywhere over in the middle of no where. The "store" where I picked up the jointer, had a big banner out front. The Lancaster Park City Mall has a huge color banner out congrat to Floyd. There is just a tremendous amount of pride over in Lancaster County and I hope it doesn't get crushed. The local news states that "most" cyclist are cleared in subsequent test regarding "high" testosterone. However a local Sports MD states, that given what he has read about the performance and the reliability of the test, he is almost certain that Floyd is done.

[PJC]

New info I heard on ESPN earlier was not that he had high testosterone levels, but a high imbalance of testosterone. Now, I am not a doctor so take it for what I can remember.

Supposedly there is testosterone and epi-testosterone (this may not be the correct term, but close enough). Basically they do a relational test between the two and a rider fails on anything over a 6-1 ratio. Floyd's was 11-1. His testosterone and epi-testosterone were actually below the levels that they should have been or too low. The report I saw believes that the perfectly legal cortazone (sp?) shots he was getting for his hips caused this imbalance and hence the failure on the test.

Let's hope this is the case and that he is cleared of any wrong doing.

Pete

[germdoc]

See this article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?cnn=yes

It's pretty complicated--he apparently has a high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Now I am a doctor, but I don't really know what this means in terms of potential "doping". A mass spectrometry test is apparently being planned to help sort out whether his testosterone is "natural" or exogenous, that is, something he took.

A couple of points: I am naturally skeptical of unusual test results, especially those involving toxicology, and so I would wait til we have all the evidence. Also, who's to say someone else--a competitor--didn't somehow "dope" his sample or give him something to lead to an abnormal test result? I know this sounds unlikely, but hey, remember Nancy Kerrigan?

I feel bad for all the bikers and all the fans. I hope this can be sorted out in Floyd's favor.

[JR]

he apparently has a high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Now I am a doctor, but I don't really know what this means in terms of potential "doping".

As i unerstand it, many doping tests look for abnormalities in blood chemistry as a hint that there may be doping. As your referenced article indicates, a 4:1 ratio of testosterone to epitesosterone is sufficiently abnormal to cause concern. It doesn't, of and by itself, identify exactly whether doping took place.

Similarly, a hematocrit level of 50 (50 "whats" I don't know) is abnormal and will cause a rider to be immediately banned until he can show he's one of the few whose blood naturally reads so high. The concern is that EPO or other subtances were introduced to raise red-blood-cell count, and therefore improve endurance.

A mass spectrometry test is apparently being planned to help sort out whether his testosterone is "natural" or exogenous, that is, something he took.

There are supposedly quite a few athletes who have been able to "beat the rap" on this test, either through further testing or by showing a pattern of previous results which were close to the limit.

Also, who's to say someone else--a competitor--didn't somehow "dope" his sample or give him something to lead to an abnormal test result?

This argument get loads of play in cycling circles. Most commonly the fear is very Kerrigan-like, that someone would try to make a rider sick by giving him tainted water or food. If you see riders taking bottles from strangers on a big climb you'd know how easy it would be to accomplish. It's also relatively common for entire teams to get sick due to food poisining. The best teams, like Discovery, make their own luck by being extremely careful about this.

Generally, though, the rules are specific that there is no excuse for having taken tainted food - it's still the athlete's fault. Many have tried to claim that "something was in my vitamin supplement", but basically that's just too bad. One American rider actually proved, by buying up all the available samples of his suplement, that the factory, which also made steroids, had screwed up. He still was suspended for a year.

The cycling world is waiting for the B sample results. But I think that will be only the beginning. Floyd's going to have to then prove that the abnormal results are from normal circumstances.

JR

[parnelli]

Hadn't seen a follow up post yet today on Landis- this is from the times uk

Tour de France victor to lose title

Maurice Chittenden
FLOYD LANDIS, this year’s Tour de France winner, was last night contemplating the ruins of his sporting career after a second drug sample tested positive for testosterone.
NI_MPU('middle');
Landis, 30, was sacked from Phonak, his Swiss cycling team, within minutes of the result being made public and only a legal action can prevent him being the first Tour winner to be stripped of the trophy and its £303,000 prize money.
Christian Prudhomme, the Tour’s director, said: “It goes without saying that for us Floyd Landis is no longer the winner of the 2006 Tour de France.”
The American now faces a two-year ban from the sport and, barring a successful appeal, will not be lining up when the Tour starts in London next July and passes through Kent on its way to France.
Yesterday’s announcement by the UCI, the international cycling union, that the “B” analysis of Landis’s urine sample matched the original “A” test will raise new questions about illegal means of boosting sporting performance.
Testosterone improves stamina and strength and can speed up recovery after exercise. Last weekend the world’s joint fastest man, Justin Gatlin, the Olympic 100m champion, admitted he had tested positive for the same hormone.
Landis tested positive after stage 17 of the Tour when he led for more than half the day in the Alps, winning by an astonishing margin of almost six minutes. It was the more remarkable because the previous day he had collapsed on the final climb to La Toussuire.
The rider, who suffers from a degenerative hip, has hired Howard Jacobs, a leading Los Angeles sports lawyer, and will say his body produces high levels of the hormone naturally.
“I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone,” Landis said yesterday. “It is now my goal to clear my name.”
He expects the appeal to be resolved within four to six months. If it fails his title will be handed to this year’s runner-up, Oscar Pereiro, 29, of Spain.