Is prayer non-religious?

[Pappy]

Dave, I went back and reread your post and I'm still not sure if your intent was to pose a question, or to register a protest.

If it was a question, I don't believe the posts you are talking about breach the intent of Sam's ban on religious topics. They don't discuss specific religious beliefs or policies, nor do they ask anyone to change their beliefs.

If your intent was to protest these posts, then you have, IMO, stepped over the line drawn by Sam on both religion and politics. The proposal to deny other members the right to allude to their personal beliefs is, to some extent, in itself a statement about religion and definitely a poltical statement.

[kwgeorge]

I think what we are looking at here is a distinction between the “Letter of the Law” and the “Intent of the Law”. I think that anytime politics or religion enters into any discussion with a variance of people emotion becomes the driving force of the conversation. That is what the “Letter of the Law” as Sam has laid out is trying to prevent against.

I personally do not take offense to your post as you are welcome to your own opinion on this subject but I will say that I don’t really think that asking for a prayer from people that you believe you have become friends with over time violates Sam’s rules. As has been stated by others the header of the message most often clearly states the intent so if you are offended by this then you do not have to read it. When responding to such you do not by any means have to indicate that you will be praying for that person but could instead mention that the person will be in your thoughts which I believe is the real intent anyway.

My .02

Ken

[Tim Clark]

"I'm curious as to whether forum members are soliciting or engaging in some form of non-religious prayer,"

If it's "non-religious" then the "religion" argument doesn't really apply, does it?

I fail to see how asking for and recieving prayer (of any kind) is "discussing" religion. It's called supporting a friend in a time of need.

But, it is after all Sam's call.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[Stytooner]

My take on the topic is that it may have been aimed and intended to provoke a discussion on the very topic in question.
I feel that prayer requests have been posted often enough to have been noticed by Sam and were they contrary to what Sam intentions were, he would already have been let it be known.
The correct action if you have an issue that you think violates any of the Forum rules is not to post on the Forum for further discussion, but to notify one of the Moderators or Sam himself.
I am certain that you will receive an explanation as to why it is allowed or action would be taken with the violator and his post. Thanks.

[9johnny5]

wow what a discussion

Well, my wife and I just had a "vibrant" discussion about this subject. I showed her dlminehart's post, and then we had a "discussion" about it. My initial viewpoint was to disagree TOTALLY with Dave (as I have done in the past), and post a reply that stated, basically, if it offends you, your viewpoint offends me, so just don't read it. But, after a moment's thought, that wasn't right either, that violates the same rules of etiquette we adhere to. My wife and I don't agree on this. Her view is that Dave's request is technically accurate in the sense that to abstain from usage of the word "prayer" (since it has specific religious definitions and connotations) is within the delineations that Sam has placed in the rules of the forum. Her words: "Either you are steering clear of religion or you're not - can't have it both ways." If the word "prayer" had only one meaning, I would agree. But, then again, I didn't serve this country for 23 years in the Navy to have life dictated to me by the "technically accurate".

My view is that there are several different definitions of the word "prayer", and not all of them are religiously held. One is "A thing requested, or a fervent request". Consolation in a time of need is indeed, by all definitions, a "fervent request". Dave and I do NOT see things the same way, a request for "prayers" in time of personal difficulty does not mean that any person should engage in specific denomination-related or particular sectarian activity, but, in a manner that is comfortable to THAT person, a request of them to communicate positive thoughts and feelings of good-will and harmony. If, to that person, that means so say a prayer, or not, or a poem or not, FINE BY ME. If the prayer is Catholic, or Jewish, or Baptist, or Muslim - I'm not going to name them all, you get the idea - still FINE BY ME. Not one person here has intended to offend anyone with a request, other than Dave. I don't think that was intended, either.
BUT - the one thing that my wife and I can agree on is that Dave's request seems inconsiderate, inappropriate and ill-timed, given the particular hardships that some have experienced in their lives lately. Lee said it best: QUOTE "The correct action if you have an issue that you think violates any of the Forum rules is not to post on the Forum for further discussion, but to notify one of the Moderators or Sam himself."

johnny

[Sam Conder]

I figured this would come up sooner or later and it has pretty much gone like I supposed. I just never thought the choice of timing on the post would be so poor.

I can't really add anything new to the discussion other than to say that there will be no "ban" on posts asking for support of any kind, including prayer.

I lurk on a lot of forums, both woodworking related and not. I evaluate moderation techniques, evaluate the software, and investigate how they integrate it into their site. I also pay attention to the way the members interact. The forums that I feel are in the upper ranks of great forums all seem a lot like an extended family. They are genuinely concerned for one another in times of need and are genuinely happy for one another in times of joy. I think BT3Central is one of those forums. It has grown that way not because of anything I have done with the software, but because of the relationships formed between the members. If those relationships ever fail so will the forum, plain and simple.

"I only ask that you steer away from topics on religion or politics." Is a request for prayer a topic on religion? I don't think so. No one is saying you must pray, nor are they telling you how to pray or who to pray to. They are simply asking for a little support from a group of folks they have come to know and trust. I'll come right out and say that if BT3Central ever turns into a place where a hurting person cannot ask for the prayers of the members, then I will no longer be a member. There are literally hundreds of folks on here that can run the software, many could even do a better job at it than me.

Now, may I humbly ask that this thread simply drop off the bottom of the list. We could argue this back and forth for 30 pages and do nothing bud draw a line of division in the middle of the forum. My suggestion is if you don't like discussions about prayer, don't read them. If you don't like what someone has to say, PM them and tell them about it and report the post to the moderators. If you find someone particularly annoying, add them to your ignore list.

[Hellrazor]

As Sam said, play nice. I am not a huge religion fan, I do not want to hear about someone elses take on things. But by the same token you need to respect that other people have different beliefs, etc. David does have some valids points bringing this up, but its also like playing devils advocate (no pun intended). Hopefully this whole discussion doesn't stop people from keeping everyone informed about issues.

None of the people who posted the prayer topics are preaching anything, they are asking for support during some hard times. The last time I checked this forum was about support.

My 2cents.

[gjbivin]

This thread is the best example of why the original "rule" against bringing up religion or politics is there in the first place. Unfortunately, those areas strike "too close to home" with many (or most) people, and the discussion gets out of hand too rapidly.

So far as the original post is concerned, like Hellrazor, I am not religious. But I do understand and appreciate the spirit in which requests for prayers are given. I don't think such general expressions of concern are offensive, as long as they are incidental to the subject of the post.

I enjoy this forum because I enjoy woodworking, and I get a lot of useful information from all of you. It's refreshing to find a place on the Internet where discussions are respectful and positive. So -- enough said: let's get back to making sawdust!

[Scottydont]

This thread is the best example of why the original "rule" against bringing up religion or politics is there in the first place. Unfortunately, those areas strike "too close to home" with many (or most) people, and the discussion gets out of hand too rapidly.

So far as the original post is concerned, like Hellrazor, I am not religious. But I do understand and appreciate the spirit in which requests for prayers are given. I don't think such general expressions of concern are offensive, as long as they are incidental to the subject of the post.

I enjoy this forum because I enjoy woodworking, and I get a lot of useful information from all of you. It's refreshing to find a place on the Internet where discussions are respectful and positive. So -- enough said: let's get back to making sawdust!

Gary wrote his post as if the thoughts came out of my head. I am not particularly religious either. I have my own sensitivities about prayers being asked for in the forum. I would like to encourage you to think about this. Rather than split hairs about the appropriateness of these types of posts, concider the fact that folks that do post them:

1) Are in a time of need.
2) In some cases may have very little or inadequate support with their friends and families.
3) Feel safe to do so (without redicule or critisism.)

I have responded to them as any friend would do.

As Sam (and anybody who has moderated a forum knows) you are never going to please everyone. I beleive Sam has done an incredible job guiding the community to what it has become today by not being to restrictive but not allowing flaming rants like some other forums I won't mention the names. What is important here is that what we value most here is COMMUNITY! Not what saw, age,sex, or religious beliefs one may have. I come here because of the collective information, support and comradery of fellow members.

Here is something that might put things into perspective.

1st ask yourself:
1. Name the five wealthiest people in the world.
2. Name the last five Heisman trophy winners.
3. Name the last five winners of the Miss America contest.
4. Name ten people who have won the Nobel or Pulitzer Prize.
5. Name the last half dozen Academy Award winners for best actor actress.
6. Name the last decade's worth of World Series winners.
How did you do?

The point is, none of us remember the headliners of yesterday. These are
no second-rate achievers. They are the best in their fields.
But the applause dies. Awards tarnish. Achievements are forgotten.
Accolades and certificates are buried with their owners.

Now try these:
1. List a few teachers who aided your journey through school.
2. Name three friends who have helped you through a difficult time.
3. Name five people who have taught you something worthwhile.
4. Think of a few people who have made you feel, appreciated and special.
5. Think of five people you enjoy spending time with.
6. Name half a dozen heroes whose stories have inspired you. Easier?

The lesson: The people who make a difference in your life are not
the ones with the most credentials, the most money, or the most awards. They are the ones that care.

I have many friends here that are worthy of being on the second list. I hope you do too.

[TB Roye]

Thanks Scott

The one thing I have noticed, learned from and enjoyed about BT3 Central is most of the members are men. Men do not discuss personal and emotional things nor ask for help. But here they fell safe enough to do so. I hope that never changes. We all may need that at some point in our lives.

Tom

[Wood_workur]

I feel that aslong as the topice dosn't become out of hand arguing, it is fine. We do have the right of free speech, but Sam can limit this because this forum is privatle run and funded. If someone feels that they need that kind of support, then they should post it.

Now on the other hand, if Hitler started posing his thoughts about some religons on this forum, then we start to cross into arguing, and disrespect twoards others, and that would need to have a stop put to it. (Sorrry, if I offended you; I don't mean any harm, just trying to post my view on this)

[Russianwolf]

My thought is, and I think it fits right in with what Sam was talking about.

This is Semantics, The person could have just as easily used the words "Good wishes needed" or "keep me in your thoughts". No harm, no foul. even "life sucks right now" would ellicit the same responses I bet.

point is, it's only a word in this context.

[dlminehart]

I guess the message here is that prayer requests are OK (not a "religious topic") when there's only a semantic difference between them and a request for sympathy or concern.

I guess I was just finding that this forum was looking more like our bulletin board at church than the one around our office water cooler, and wondering whether we might be straying over the line Sam has wisely drawn.

And, for those who have somehow inferred an antireligious agenda on my part, let me simply note that during my recent 16 months of unemployment here in Silicon Valley, home of the million dollar shed fixer-upper, I incurred thousands of dollars of continuing debt in order to maintain my pledge to our church.

[lkazista]

Kinda like saying "God Bless You" when a stranger sneezes.

[gjat]

I guess the message here is that prayer requests are OK (not a "religious topic") when there's only a semantic difference between them and a request for sympathy or concern.

I guess I was just finding that this forum was looking more like our bulletin board at church than the one around our office water cooler, and wondering whether we might be straying over the line Sam has wisely drawn.

And, for those who have somehow inferred an antireligious agenda on my part, let me simply note that during my recent 16 months of unemployment here in Silicon Valley, home of the million dollar shed fixer-upper, I incurred thousands of dollars of continuing debt in order to maintain my pledge to our church.

As a non-church goer, I've got to comment...
Now there's logic!
And 16 months of unemployment? Are you a buggy whip maker?
And I'm never offended if somebody says they'll pray for me and I'll think positive thoughts about anyone who asks for prayers from me.
I almost never check in this 'coffe pot' thread, you can use this as a great wood working site with a friendly atmosphere without visiting this thread. Not to be facetious, but that may be a great suggestion. Though maybe I should have asked for prayers on the Bargin Alert thread when I was trying to get the Jet Saw for $150.