Lie Nielsen Planes

[LarryG]

Those of you who own, or have used, Lie Nielsen planes ... are they worth their premium prices?

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with my efforts to find a *good* Stanley 60-1/2 at a reasonable price, and am seriously considering ordering an LN unless someone talks me down off this ledge.

Second choice would be the Veritas 05P22.01 but I've read two different magazine reviews that both said that as nice as the Veritas is, the LN is worth the extra fifty bucks.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

[Mainemarc]

Hi Larry:

The LN and the Veritas are in a league apart from the vintage Stanleys. But if you're willing to consider that quality level (which is still much better than the trash Stanley and others sell today), don't restrict yourself to just the 60 1/2. Sargent made a very sweet clone of the 60 1/2. I have the one Sargent sold under the Craftsman label and it tuned up beautifully.

The 60 1/2 is priced above what it's worth as a user, IMHO. The price of the 60 1/2 is quite inflated because it's so desirable to collectors. For folks looking to acquire a LA block to actually work with, vintage Sargents and Craftsmans are a much better buy.

FYI, if you do go with a LN (and therefore support my state's economy ), consider the rabbet block; it's supposedly just as good for all the things you'd want a regular LA block for, plus it's fantastic for trimming tenons to fit.

[bolson]

LN is nice, but LV is better and cheaper.

LN just copies old stanley designs, whereas Veritas redesigns the old stanley designs.

In almost every case (there are a few exceptions), the Veritas planes are better than LN and a better value than LN. I am one of a handful who has probably actually had the opportunity to work with many of LN and LV side by side, and can say from those experiences that the extra $50-100 for LN gets you nothing and sometimes less.

I think FWW in particular is a bit biased toward LN since most of the reviewers own a lot of LN planes, since many of the veritas planes are newer.

In this case the Veritas 60 1/2 is a sweet little plane. Also stay away from the LN rabbetting planes, the toe on them are way to flimsy and causes a lot of chatter. IMHO the rabbeting designs of LN aren't that great

HTH

Brad

[Tundra_Man]

If I meet my exercise goals for this year, my reward is a Lie Nielsen low-angle block plane.

This biggest problem I've heard about the LN planes is that they tend to rust when you drool on them.

[Kingbird87]

I by no means am a craftsman with a hand plane, but I am trying to include them more in my hobby. I followed your same path with the low angle block plane. I have my Dad's old Sargent Craftsman and it is a joy to use. Every Stanley I ever compared to it seemed lighter and less finely machined. I bought the Lee Valley LA and the ball and tail for it. I suppose that was the kicker. I would love to own the Lie-Nielsen as well. I doubt it will matter ever with my skills, but I know that the ball and tail handles will give me a low angle smoother I can bear down on a bit more. Good Luck.

[ChrisD]

quote:Originally posted by Mainemarc

FYI, if you do go with a LN (and therefore support my state's economy ), consider the rabbet block; it's supposedly just as good for all the things you'd want a regular LA block for, plus it's fantastic for trimming tenons to fit.

I did a price research on this just recently. The lowest price is $135 at finetoolj.com; they ship all L-Ns free.

[Hoover]

I don't own any Lie-Nielsen planes, I am having a difficult time trying to justify the price. Do you need an adjustable mouth plane, because Lie Nielsen has a #103 in iron that goes for $75.00 (apron plane) that is a low angle.

Sargent and Millers Falls made good low angle block planes. Sometimes you will find a Craftsman out there(made by Sargent), these are sometimes available and less spendy than the Stanley 60 1/2.

Also mentioned is the Lee Valley, which is an alternative.

Lately on EBay the prices on planes has taken off, 6 months ago I got a Sargent block plane for $5.00, not any more.

[bolson]

Larry,

The big difference, and the most important difference is that the Veritas plane has a much better designed blade adjustment mechanism. This is what LN completely ignores when they make their planes-since I have a feeling they focus their market more on the collector type of plane user.

LN blade adjustment mechanisms (if they even put one in) are very finicky.

In fact, some of the LN sales reps use plane hammers to make their adjustments. Once you get skilled at using a plane hammer, it isn't a big deal, but until you get to that point, I have found LN planes to much of a pain to adjust when using them in the real world.

IMHO, LN planes are Looker planes, and LV spends more time making User planes.

Usually LV gets knocked to second for two reasons...

A) They don't polish the bodies of their planes

B) They don't polish their blades-but you have to lap either blade anyway.

If you like to look at your planes, then these are a big deal, if you like to use your plane, then I think you'll find the redesign of blade adjustment on the Veritas planes much better.

One thing a lot of people overlook is that the Veritas 60 1/2 if a bit wider and a bit more heavy, which is a big advantage for end grain work.

Like I said I have used a lot of the Veritas and LN planes side by side and the LN planes are prettier, but I think this isn't as important as function.

In the case of function, Veritas plaes are much easier to set up, adjust and cut is on par with LN.

With block planes, especially on endgrain, you appreciate being able to make fine adjustments quickly

HTH, and sorry to be such a downer on LN, but I was disappointed to say the least when I went to use a friend of mines LN planes and when we compared these to their counterparts at Veritas

So my conclusion about LN is that I wouldn't buy most of their planes even if they were cheaper than Veritas.

[ChrisD]

quote:Originally posted by bolson

Also stay away from the LN rabbetting planes, the toe on them are way to flimsy and causes a lot of chatter. IMHO the rabbeting designs of LN aren't that great
Brad

Brad, please clarify as I am very interested in the L-N rabbet block and don't want to make a $135 mistake! Are you talking about this in particular or also their shoulder planes? I didn't know the toe can contribute to chatter. Thanks!

[LarryG]

Thank you, Brad. Exactly the sort of point-by-point analysis I was hoping for.

"Everyone" says Lie Nielsen planes are the best. The problem is that there are a lot of products out there, in a lot of different types, that "everyone" says are the best. In many cases, they're not: the legend has grown to be bigger than the product itself. In some cases I have learned this lesson the hard way (i.e., spent my own money) and in other cases I was able to learn by someone else's mistake (too bad for them, but lucky for me).

But having said that, the one thing I really hate to do as a consumer is buy something that is almost, but not quite, the best -- or if not the absolute best, then the best among those choices in the approximate price range I'm considering. More simply put, for me there's nothing worse than spending $100 and subsequently realizing I could have had So Much More if I'd spent $110. As I often say, there'll never again be an opportunity to upgrade as cheaply as when you make your initial purchase.

In this case, at $99 the L-V represents a considerable step up from the $29.96 I could spend on a new Stanley at Lowe's. So if I'm going to up the ante that much, I want to be sure I shouldn't go even more.

Okay, then. For now I'm off the ledge, back inside the window. I'll be at Woodcraft on Monday and may take the opportunity to examine the L-N firsthand. But at this point I'm probably leaning toward the Veritas.

Thanks much for your help ... for everyone's help, in fact.

[bolson]

Chris,

I am refering to their rabbetting bench planes (not shoulder and bull nose planes). The problem is that if you have a difficult cut that there is enough flex between the nose sole of the plane and the blade mechanism/sole that you'll get a bit of chatter.

Some people really like the rabbeting bench planes, but I found that the rabbeting part compromises the cut quality. If you already have a full suite of planes and would like the added functionality of the rabbeting feature, then you should buy a rabbetting bench plane IN ADDITION to a regular bench plane.

What are you planing to do with the rabbeting block plane?

If you are cleaning up tennons, then I would recommend a shoulder plane instead. There is more metal holding on the nose so MUCH less chatter. You can also use the shoulder plane to clean up the shoulder and the face of the tennon.

[bolson]

quote:Originally posted by LarryG

Thank you, Brad. Exactly the sort of point-by-point analysis I was hoping for.


Okay, then. For now I'm off the ledge, back inside the window. I'll be at Woodcraft on Monday and may take the opportunity to examine the L-N firsthand. But at this point I'm probably leaning toward the Veritas.

Thanks much for your help ... for everyone's help, in fact.

If you do get the Veritas and are unhappy with it, Lee Valley will take it back no questions asked. You can ask, but I think they will even do it without charging you shipping.

[ChrisD]

quote:Originally posted by bolson

Chris,

I am refering to their rabbetting bench planes (not shoulder and bull nose planes). The problem is that if you have a difficult cut that there is enough flex between the nose sole of the plane and the blade mechanism/sole that you'll get a bit of chatter.

Some people really like the rabbeting bench planes, but I found that the rabbeting part compromises the cut quality. If you already have a full suite of planes and would like the added functionality of the rabbeting feature, then you should buy a rabbetting bench plane IN ADDITION to a regular bench plane.

What are you planing to do with the rabbeting block plane?

If you are cleaning up tennons, then I would recommend a shoulder plane instead. There is more metal holding on the nose so MUCH less chatter. You can also use the shoulder plane to clean up the shoulder and the face of the tennon.

Thanks, Brad and sorry, Larry, for hijacking your thread!

I need to trim a bunch of tenons and that's probably the only type of task that I would use it for -- or any other that may come up for which a LA block would be perfect. It just seems handier than, say, Veritas' large shoulder plane especially considering that the L-N rabbet block is 1/2" wider.

[Mainemarc]

Ok, I think Chris' point is well taken about more flex with an open cheeked rabbet plane producing more blade chatter.

(Although I have to wonder what the true source of such chatter would be. If you're getting chatter with a quality low angle block of any type, I would think you'd need to sharpen the blade, not switch to a stouter plane body).

And the fact that the LV is wider isn't necessarily an advantage; some people feel the narrower tool feels better in hand than the wider one. They both have about the same mass.

But Larry, I'm going to further complicate your decision; when you say you've more or less decided to get the Veritas Medium shoulder plane for tenons, understand that I was talking about a completely different operation for the LA rabbet block plane. The Veritas shoulder plane, as its name implies, is for trimming tenon shoulders. With it's narrow blade, it wouldn't be an ideal tool for trimming the tenons themselves.

The rabbet block plane, with the blade extending all the way across the width of the tool, is highly suitable for trimming tenon cheeks, so you can sneak up on a perfect fit in the mortise by cutting the tenon just slightly oversize.

Long story short, you simply NEED both tools . Just think of me as a helpful woodworker trying to add to your mental anguish.

PS: Seriously, I think you are *way* over-analyzing any conceivable incremental difference between the performance of the Veritas versus the LN. I mean you're in the ironic position of chosing among the two best block planes ever manufactured in the history of toolmaking. Either are so much better than any reasonable alternative that you're going to get a big, goofy grin on your face any time you use it.

[HarmsWay]

Anyone that's read any of my previous plane posts knows I'm a huge Lee Valley fan. My first plane was a new Stanley block and it just put a big frown on my face every time I tried to use it. I had no other experience so I assumed it was a combination of not being tuned properly and me not using it right. But then a good friend let me try his LV version and it put a smile on my face. What a difference! Good ergonomics, easy adjustment and cut like butter. My next three planes were LV - including the med. shoulder plane which is very nice. All the reviews I've read compared the LV with an equiv. LN and in all cases they were very close in performance although the LN generally won in aesthetics. LV won big time for value though. I still have the Stanley. I've put a lot of effort in trying to salvage it, including getting our machine shop to resurface the blade bed that was tilted. It's still a crappy plane though.

Bob