Questions before I purchase new TS..

[cpritchard]

Thanks Dustmight, that helps alot! I think for me, the G0478 might be the route to go.
Is the saw you have, the craftsman hybrid?

[Knottscott]

Thanks for all the replys! Looks like I will be leaning towards a hybrid or the Griz1023. Are there any major differences in the two?

Absolutely. In addition to jumping to a full 3hp motor, the trunnions and innerds of the 1023 are much more substantial. My 22124 is plenty rugged and powerful enough for hobby work, but in sheer construction terms, the 1023 is basically an industrial grade saw and is more robust than any hybrid I know of. The 22124 and other hybrids are great if you don't have 220v, and/or their sale prices are the absolute top limit of your budget, but if you can swing the roughly $1100 or so price and 220v, there are no advantages with the hybrid design over the cab saw design.

Performance wise, you probably won't notice any difference in the cut quality between them, but you will notice the increased feedrate on the 1023. You'd probably notice a difference in the "feel" of the 1023 due to the sheer mass over the G0478....the 22124 is heavy enough (425#) that the weight difference should be less pronounced compared to the 1023. DC should be about the same with all of them, but G0478 hybrid may have some advantage due to the blade shroud.

Top view of the 1023 trunnions:


Bottom view of the Griz G0478 hybrid trunnions:


Top view of the 22124 trunnoins:

[jackellis]

Even though there aren't any riving knives in this price range, there are options for low cost low profile splitters that will fit any of them.

I've just purchased a Shark Guard with RK for my 3100 and I notice it also appears to fit a number of larger, more expensive saws. Wouldn't the RK on a Shark Guard perform as well on the cabinet saws it fits as the stock RK on a 3100? If so, it seems like a worthwhile addition.

[LarryG]

Hey LarryG you confused me there about a RK being more effective over a splitter at the beginning of a cut. Is that correct? I thought that kickbacks mostly occurred at the end of a cut and therefore the RK would be more effective at the end of a cut or am I misunderstanding this.

What I was trying to say was and is clear to me, but obviously it would be, wouldn't it?

In comparing the effectiveness of the two devices at the beginning of the cut, I meant that since the RK hugs the blade and the splitter is typically a few inches behind the blade, the RK becomes effective earlier in the cut ... virtually immediately, because its position makes it almost like an extension of the blade. If there are internal stresses within the workpiece that try to make it close up the kerf, the RK is there to hold the kerf open as soon as the workpiece passes the back edge of the blade. Some pieces of wood have such high internal stresses that even the few inches of distance to the splitter is enough for the kerf to start closing up behind the blade. Or, with short workpieces, an RK might well be contributing to safety at times when a splitter never even comes into play, because it's too far away from the blade.

IOW, what I meant was, in addition to the RK's improved safety toward the end of the cut, which I think everyone is aware of, I was just saying that it's better during the first part of a cut, too.

[cpritchard]

Thanks for all the replys! Looks like I will be leaning towards a hybrid or the Griz1023. Are there any major differences in the two?

[lcm1947]

Hey LarryG you confused me there about a RK being more effective over a splitter at the beginning of a cut. Is that correct? I thought that kickbacks mostly occurred at the end of a cut and therefore the RK would be more effective at the end of a cut or am I misunderstanding this. Just trying to learn something. Certainly not disputing you.

Dustmight or onedash, could you tell me please who makes the 22124? I thought I pretty much knew them all but this one I don't know. Maybe an older model I'm not familiar with. Appreciate it.

A thought just occurred to me. Kreg makes a splitter I believe they call it which is a tiny little piece that you attach onto the throat plate just directly behind the blade. I think maybe if they really are any good and really work helping prevent kickback that that might be an answer to any of the saws that don't have a RK. I know they don't move up and down like a true RK but seems like they'd be better then a regular splitter that the big saws come with as far as kickback anyway.

[LarryG]

A riving knife really only benefits you more than a splitter if you are doing dadoes or any non through cut right?

Yes ... no ... it depends on how tall the splitter or riving knife are.

A riving knife is really just an improved splitter ... it goes up and down with the blade, and it hugs the blade more closely, which makes it more effective against kickbacks during the early part of a cut, or with short workpieces, than a splitter.

If you routinely use some kind of hold-down device (rollers, featherboard) on your rip fence, then I would say that a simple splitter is as effective as an RK in theory. Since I hunch most of us don't routinely use hold-downs, an RK is a bit safer in actual practice.

[onedash]

A riving knife really only benefits you more than a splitter if you are doing dadoes or any non through cut right?

the only problem with my 22124 is sawdust coming out of the front of the guard. I have been using a zero clearance blade insert since I got it and I think that makes it a little worse.

[Knottscott]

There's definitely some gains to be made with any of the full size saws, but I think you'll be farther ahead if you skip the contractor saw class altogether. The outboard motor causes some issues that the hybrids and cabinet saws don't suffer from, plus they take up unnecessary space. There are very few advantages of that design over a hybrid, and cabinet saw trumps them all.

What you'll gain with a contractor saw, hybrid, or cabinet saw is much a larger solid cast iron surface especially in front of the blade, quieter motor and possibly more perceived power (no contest with the 3hp cab saw), a rugged and accurate steel fence on most, cast iron and steel construction throughout, heavy mass and stability, and essentially a saw that should last for a lifetime with little maintenance. You'll get better DC with the hybrids and cabinet saws. The cabinet saw's trunnions are easy to align and will hold the settings extremely well. Some of the hybrids like the Craftsman and Steel City also feature cabinet mounted trunnions. All will accept standard accessories and jigs that are pretty much interchangeable. Even though there aren't any riving knives in this price range, there are options for low cost low profile splitters that will fit any of them. Though a less elegant solution, they will essentially perform the same function as a riving knife.

I'm extremely happy with my 22124, but the closer you get to $1K, the more closely you should look at taking the leap for the full cabinet saw. Since you've got 220v and are just about within budget range, cry once and make it the last saw you ever own. The cabinet saw is simply a more robust machine with more advantages. The downsides are cost and electrical requirements, and it looks like you can overcome both pretty easily.

Good luck.

[Ken Massingale]

Chris,
All the saws suggested are fine machines, you probably won't go wrong with either. I have the TS3650 and love it. It does accept aftermarket rails and fences if that is a concern, but I see no need to go that route. The fence that comes on the saw is very good. I perhaps would consider going to an Incra system if I had the room.
Good luck with your decision.
ken

[JTimmons]

<snip> Three inch white oak.... can't hear the motor change pitch. Accurate every time.

I forgot to mention that, ripping white oak, like cutting through butter with a hot knife.

[Popeye]

If I had had the money at the time, the PM2000 would have been my first choice. (Riving knife, Dust shroud on the blade, built in moble base) but it's over $2k.
That said, I bought the Griz 1023 with the long rails. I'll never look back. No doubt it's the best bang for the buck you can buy. I'll never buy another saw. Three inch white oak.... can't hear the motor change pitch. Accurate every time.
My only dig is the same as with everything cast iron... rust. Down here in South Georgia's constant high humidity it's a never ending battle. Pat

[onedash]

craftsman club sale has the hybrid with beis fence on sale for $800. I love it......

[JTimmons]

I got an older version of the 1023 w/ the extended rails and love it. The dust collection is awesome below the table, you really don't need to hook up a DC to it, just cleaning it out with a shop vac would work great every now and then too.
I was pretty dead set on picking up an older Unisaw rust bucket and restoring it when I ran accross this one. Paid $600.00 for it and it came with a Uni-fence, not bad considering some of the prices I found for the fence and rail by itself were $350 to $400. (no more measuring cuts either, it's dead on everytime) So I basically got the saw for $200.
You might want to scope out sales in your area on craigslist and see if you can find something in your area.

[lcm1947]

Not too long ago and I mean weeks I too was wanting to upgrade and was pretty well decided on a contractors saw due to price and was leaning toward the Ridgid but the two things I didn't like and couldn't get past was the lack of a knife like we have on the 3100/3000 and the fact that all contractor saws have the motor hanging out the back creating sawdust everyplace. I just insist on a sawdust free workplace and just can't accept a machine that isn't as least as good as the 3100 in that regard. I have the Shark and what the saw doesn't keep up on the Shark does so it's a clean little saw. Yeah I know, wrong hobby to get into but...anyway that's my hang up. Anyway, from there you have two hybrid saws the DeWalt model DW746 and Jet JWSS-10PF. They both have the splitters too so there goes either of those. What a shame though as I really liked the DeWalt but of coure it also is the only one that has a stupid 2 1/2 " dust outlet. Now you're looking at cabinet saws and holy cow those are expensive. Especially for a part time weekend only kind of guy like me. Then if you look at these closely you notice that you probably or at least I would have had to purchase a separate better fence at least on the lower of the high priced monsters and add that expense onto an already high price - well that's when I made some modifications to my 3100 that was bugging me and have decided to keep it after all. I am now very happy and pleased with this little saw again. I would love to have a nice cabinet saw but for the life of me I just can't justify it. If you insist on a knife you'll just have to get the Powematic like drumpriest did or Sawstop. So anyway if you don't mind the dust or not having a knife then there are plenty of good saws out there and the Grizzly was rated Best Value in the 2007 Tool Guide so it may be just the ticket although the Ridgid would be very tempting. So good luck and above all else take your time and enjoy the experience. Heck that's half the fun.