Dust collection. Are we fooling ourselves?

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  • dbhost
    Slow and steady
    • Apr 2008
    • 9209
    • League City, Texas
    • Ryobi BT3100

    Dust collection. Are we fooling ourselves?

    The title is kind of self explanatory, but let's face some facts.

    MOST, but not all of us that are using some sort of dust collector, are using some kind of small 110v collector, and the most popular it seems is the cheap Harbor Freight 2HP dust collector that we all acknowledge is less than ideal, but is being pressed into service anyway.

    We make do the best we can with our 2HP motors by installing the largest impellers that will fit (Wen or Rikon 12" possibly others), adding some sort of separator, and swapping out the dust pump bag filter for a MERV15 pleated filter like the Wynn...

    We add some method of separating fines / chips so they don't clog up the filter quite so fast, and we make our runs as short, smooth, and straight as physically possible in order to keep from taking too big of a hit to our airflow.

    But is it enough?

    To be blunt. NO IT IS NOT.

    If most dust and chips collected is our goal, then 4" will work, but oh so just barely.

    5" is better, but we have gone on at length about the issues getting 5" parts.

    6" is even better, but we are running into the limits of the ability of our blowers to actually move that much air.

    7" hits the sweet spot, but as we all know, odd number sizes are VERY difficult to get parts for, or at the least incredibly expensive.

    So what's the solution?

    Well the claim is buy once cry once. I am not sure I agree. My argument is if you have to wait to buy the best, you may never get the chance to even get started.

    There is wisdom in both approaches. And drawbacks.

    Simply put, We need bigger blowers. MUCH bigger blowers. WIth higher CFM blowers, your duct CFM will remain up, with a smaller duct size. But don't get too enthusiastic.

    Something to keep in mind, when I tested and calcualted CFM of my post Wen impeller swap through my former Thien 5" separator / drum, and 24" of 5" ribbed hose, I ended up with a calculation of around 768cfm at the 5" inlet of the Thien.

    Further research shows Thien separators take a steep hit on CFM of around 43-48%, knowing the leaks mine had, and the ribbed hose. I am going to say 48% just for kicks and grins. That means eliminate the ribbed hose, done, eliminate the barrel separator, done, use a neutral vane that in theory should have no airflow impacts, done, and my CFM at my inlet is unmeasureable by my Anemometer.

    If anyone has a higher speed reading Anemometer that is willing to loan to me for testing, I will fill in that info when done. If you are somewhat local, we can even do the old college beer loan method! (you loan me the anemometer, I use it while we drink beer)...

    Digression set aside though. Do I think I am going to get 1K CFM at the end of a 20' run of 5" using my HF 2HP DC, even modded?

    Nope.

    I wish, but no, I am more realistic than that.

    Do I think 6" would have done the trick?

    Maybe, but nope. WIth the increase in duct size, comes an increase in CFM, but a decrease in static pressure, so the tradeoff wouldn't be worth it. I think...

    So what then?

    Well obviously bigger motor and impeller right?

    To be blunt, 2HP is about the max you are going to run on 110v, so you'll need a 220v outlet, and 3HP and up dust collectors tend to be TALL cyclones.

    This brings me to the other major problem. Space.

    My workshop is a garage workshop, with 8' celings, barely.

    Many of the big 3+ HP cyclone rigs are simply too tall for my space.

    And what about the folks in basement shops with even less headroom?

    Or the guys working in sheds?

    Mind you, I think there are solutions, but again they are big, and that is the double bagger units like the Shop Fox 3HP W1687 with a listed wishful CFM of 2830 but filtration listed at a VERY dangerous 30 microns. You'd need to definately add dual cartridge filters!

    So the solution I am going with, for better or worse, and I am 100% aware this is less than perfect, but is is what I can manage...

    Maximilze the performance of the existing 2HP dust collector. I have it, it works with my available power, it fits in my available space.

    Reduce or eliminate any impediments to dust collector and duct performance. In progress by straightening out runs, eliminating as many bends and as much hose as possible. etc...

    fix duct sizes as best I can, but there are a LOT of ducts I just can't fix. I.E. the Rigid Oscillating spindle / belt sander. I can fork a 4" and a 2.5" off of a 5" main, but that still won't guarantee fully picked up fine dust...

    USE A RESPIRATOR! Been doing that for years. And while I don't use it as often as I should I use it ANY TIME I work with any woods I know are reactive like Walnut...

    Install and use an ambient air cleaner. My Grizzly G0572 lives on the ceiling and takes no floor space, runs on readily available 110v power, and is high enough off the ground I don's smash my dome into it. All good. PLUS it assists in moving heated or cooled air around the shop maintaining a more constant temperature and humidity in the shop.

    Is my solution ideal?

    Nope. Not even close...

    But let's say for example finances weren't a concern. And I could afford a ClearVue CV1950 for example. Now they don't list the dimensions, but looking at the pic, and realizing the dust bin they show is a 55 gallon steel drum, thus I can measure distances of the pic, and come up with a height of around 9 feet. Meaning without any way to move the dust bin out from under it, I would have to basically smash a hole into my attic to fit this thing. Not gonna happen.

    But let's say magically my ceilings grew to 10' bippity boppity boo...

    This machine requires 8" mains, no problem, but. my biggest machien ports are 4". Now we have a problem.

    And this is a recurring problem.

    Table saw, router table both 4"

    Lathe and drill press can be anything, but imagine trying to work around an 8" dust port on a drill press table drilling small parts. Hmmmm....

    Okay let's look at other tools.

    Rigid sander, 2.5" port, Benchtop jointer, 2.5" port, benchtop planer, 2.5" port, band saw, 2@ 2.5" ports but that can change...

    Now I think we see where the culprit really is, and where our biggest problems are.

    our dust ports.

    My table saw has a 4" port because a 4" port was added to my table saw, not because it came with it. and that is on the belly pan. The blade guard has a 4" port because I got a Shark Guard with said 4" port. The blade shroud has a 2.5" factory port that I seriously doubt can be ugraded without major sheet metal surgery.

    All in all, I think the point I am trying to make here is this...

    We can fuss and fret all we want about DC motor power, / impeller sizes, and to an extent that is valid. Duct sizing should be considered absolutely, but until we can manage to properly upsize our dust ports, we are really not capturing all of the fine dust. Even with the big 5HP cyclones and huge mains.

    You need that something else. You need the respirator and air cleaner to help keep up with the job at hand...

    And in the vein of making sure our port sizes are large enough for the task at hand, I will be asking a LOT of questions that may not be able to be answered, but I am hoping to stir up some thought and creative solutions to a problem we all face...
    Last edited by dbhost; 01-18-2022, 09:57 AM.
    Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.
  • LCHIEN
    Internet Fact Checker
    • Dec 2002
    • 20920
    • Katy, TX, USA.
    • BT3000 vintage 1999

    #2
    You miss one thing. Those big DCs are for big shops with multiple tools running at the same time. The 4 inch ports are adequate for our puny shops and one tool. A bigger shop with bigger tools is going to have bigger ports and have smaller lines connecting into bigger and longer trunk lines leading to the DC.

    You're not going to collect ALL the dust from your machines, it would be tremendously costly to do so. But I look at the bag full of dust hanging from my DC and imagine if it was not caught by the DC it would be all over the shop and three inches deep on the floor around my table saw.

    Sometimes 80 or 90% solution is better than nothing or breaking the bank extremes.
    Loring in Katy, TX USA
    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

    Comment


    • dbhost

      dbhost
      commented
      Editing a comment
      Actually that is sort of the point I was trying to make. At least according ot Pentz, and the other source I can find 1K CFM for "good" fine dust collection which is probably 99+ % requiring 5HP blowers and 7+ inch ducting. Not really feasable for most, maybe not all, but most of us.
  • mpc
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2005
    • 979
    • Cypress, CA, USA.
    • BT3000 orig 13amp model

    #3
    Many big dust collection systems are intended, as Loring noted, to serve multiple machines simultaneously... in pro shops. Such shops will generally have tools designed with dust collection in mind using 4 to 6 inch ports... versus stuff sold to hobbyists with 2.5 inch ports intended for the high suction levels of shop vacs. Dust collection machines don't generate high suction levels unless the airflow (CFMs) is really choked down. Even then they generate less suction than a shop vac in my limited experience. My Ridgid EB4424 sander works better with a shop vac than it does with a 900 CFM dust collector.

    For dust collection systems connected to 2.5 inch machine ports, the port restricts CFMs a ton. Then, as the airflow goes through adapters to get to the main line diameter, the pipe cross sectional area increases dramatically... so flow velocities in the main/trunk line would be low: larger chips would fall out of the airflow and collect in the pipes. It would be better to have two main lines: one that is 4 to 6 inches in diameter for 4 inch tool ports, and one that is smaller - 3 to 4 inches in diameter - to serve tools with 2.5 inch ports.

    My setup is a Laguna P|Flux-1 cyclone, a 120 volt unit rated at 900 CFM max. I have it going to two 6 inch trunk lines with 4 inch drops at each tool. There is a 4 -> 2.5 adapter for my Ridgid EB4424 sander... and dust collection at that tool is poor. I'm sure some collected sawdust settles in the 6 inch trunk line too as the air velocity is below the 3500 ft/min recommendation. When I opened a 4 inch port on that trunk line I sometimes heard a little rattling as settled stuff got picked up again. The drill press had a 2.5 inch port too; it was the tool that generated the most shaving bits that would settle in the pipe; I've since "Y"''ed the 4 inch drop to a pair of 2.5 inch hoses at the drill press so the airflow isn't so choked. I haven't heard the "picking up" sounds since then. For the EB4424 sander, I used a flat-faced (rather than a cone) adapter and I drilled several holes in the flat face. That increased the net airflow into the drop but likely reduced the actual suction level at the 2.5 inch port. The dust collection on the sander, with the dust collector, is still not as good as when I simply hook a shop vac to it.

    Instead of a large central dust collector, I am beginning to think several smaller shop vacs might be smarter for typical hobbyist woodworker tools. Or Oneida's new (and expensive) multi-motor setup that can generate high suction levels. A shop vac with 2 to 2.5 inch hoses can be placed near benchtop tools; a remote control for the power switch and 2.5 inch blast gates at the individual tools might be a more effective setup, and could even be less expensive than additional dust collector ducting. Save the dust collector for the machines that have factory 4 inch (or larger) ports.

    mpc

    Comment

    • cwsmith
      Veteran Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 2737
      • NY Southern Tier, USA.
      • BT3100-1

      #4
      Frankly, I just don't know! Perhaps if you've got a really big shop and you're out there every day doing major production runs, you've got a challenge on your hands. But what if you're just an occasional project guy like me?

      For example, we bought this old 1887-built house about 15 years ago. I put my shop in the partially finished basement in two adjacent rooms measuring a bit less than 12 x 26 feet. In that I stuffed my BT-3100, router table 15" drill press, my HF bench, a couple of folding tables, and assorted shelving and tool cabinets; and with that, I put in a new kitchen (purchased cabinets, but I did the floor wainscote, trim, etc., built a large library (built all the shelving, window seats, trim, etc., and a cookbook library for my wife (again built the bookcases and window seats, window shutters, and trim.

      That was quit a bit of saw dust and what I would do is fill lawn bags with it as I cleaned up after every work session. I think over the year or two I filled four of those bags, marking them as saw dust and placing them on the curb for the city refuse people to remove. I BT is just standard equipped, with the exception that I blocked off the bottom opening. With each tool in use, I'd simply hook-up my Ridgid 12-gallon shop vac. and after I finished cutting or sanding that day, I'd vacuum.

      My shop remained rather clean with the only challenge being my book case which got some light dust, that I'd vacuum off every few days. Biggest pain was vacuuming the carpeted stairs that led up to the kitchen, because I hate vacuuming stairs! I even had a couple of relatives ask if I was using the shop in the basement or if I took everything outside when I cut it.

      About six years ago, I bought a 12 x 20 gambrel-roofed shed and I moved my shop out there, where it's too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. Thankfuly I don't have any big projects anymore, but I do go out there when time allows. All tools are in position and operational and I did buy an HF dust collector but it's not been set up and remains in the box. My shop vac is still performing the task and I don't get any build up of dust. I hook it to each tool as needed and vacuum up afterwards anything that gets past the normal sawduat collection. To me, that sanders pose more of a challenge than the BT or the RAS, even though I have hose connections to the power sanders too.

      The point is, for my low activity (compared to you all) I'm fine I think. I do wear a dust mask when sanding, but generally do not when running any of the saws. I added a jointer and thickness planer to my arsenel of tools, but rarely use them

      So, while I understand your 'bigger is better' thinking, I'm not sure everybody needs to make that a priority objective. Just my thinking anyway, based on my shop and my work habits.

      CWS
      Think it Through Before You Do!

      Comment

      • LCHIEN
        Internet Fact Checker
        • Dec 2002
        • 20920
        • Katy, TX, USA.
        • BT3000 vintage 1999

        #5
        MPC Suggests several vacs vs a big dust collector system.

        Originally posted by mpc
        ...

        Instead of a large central dust collector, I am beginning to think several smaller shop vacs might be smarter for typical hobbyist woodworker tools. Or Oneida's new (and expensive) multi-motor setup that can generate high suction levels. A shop vac with 2 to 2.5 inch hoses can be placed near benchtop tools; a remote control for the power switch and 2.5 inch blast gates at the individual tools might be a more effective setup, and could even be less expensive than additional dust collector ducting. Save the dust collector for the machines that have factory 4 inch (or larger) ports.

        mpc
        And that's what I have:
        • a shop vac behind the BS and the DP with a hose I swap between them and on a tool trigger that both tools are plugged into.
        • a shop vac behind the miter saw with a hose I move to the miter saw, the jointer and the router as needed. This vac is on Alexa voice command
        • and the DC on the table saw. This DC is on Alexa voice command.
        • And a third shop vac with a long hose for cleaning up the stuff that gets missed off the top of the table saw and the router table.

        Using multiple vacs is relatively cheap compared to a large DC system and the trouble and permanence and space taken of plumbing it all up.
        Last edited by LCHIEN; 01-18-2022, 05:09 PM.
        Loring in Katy, TX USA
        If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
        BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

        Comment


        • dbhost

          dbhost
          commented
          Editing a comment
          I am in a similar boat. I use the Rigid wet /dry vac / Thien trash can separator on my Jointer, planer, scroll saw and Rigid sander...

          The table saw, miter saw, band saw, and lathe need to be connected to the DC mains...
      • capncarl
        Veteran Member
        • Jan 2007
        • 3564
        • Leesburg Georgia USA
        • SawStop CTS

        #6
        I think to first focus on the equipment that produces the most dangerous fine dust. SANDERS! for my 6” belt sander, I built a collection box that covers the whole drive end, threw away the disk sander attachment because it was too out of balance to even use.and impossible to collect its dust. Originally I ran the 1.75 hp delta dust collector with a Wynn filter replacement for the spew bag, 4” hose straight to the sander, it did an ok job with only light dust buildup noted nearby. I’d say it was ok for shop use this way, and most shops use a 4” belt sander anyway. After installing the larger collector I converted it to 6” hose straight off the collector. It’s dust collection is probably as good as it’s going to get.

        For the table saw I think focusing on the bottom of the saw is the wrong place to start. Ok, collect the bottom dust but it could be done in a bag and not waste your CFM on dust that is not going in your lungs. Put the CFM on the blade guard. The same goes for the band saw. The sawdust…. Note I called it sawdust because it’s not usually fine enough to stay airborne long. The dust on the band saw table can’t be picked up by any bottom dust collection and is going to get all over the shoo if not collected. I have a 4” flexible hose as close to the blad as I can get it, not reduced down. It picks up a lot of the dust and by the looks of the flour dust on nearby equipment it gets 90%. The Honeywell air filter does have to be cleaned every few months, so some dust is being missed somewhere.

        The sliding miter saw… it needs to be out in the middle of the yard. It spews sawdust everywhere. I have the back of the saw enclosed in a lexan box with the entire 1700cfm pullling on the back of the saw. Some sawdust still flys off the blade but that is due to the manufacturer not designing dust control into the saw. Lower CFM strategy focused at the back of the blade would probably do as well. The Festool Capex saw seems to handle dust control great with just a vacuum cleaner, but it costs as much as a large dust collector does!

        Planers and drum sanders seem to have adequate dust control designed into them and should only require the 4” hose and a watchful eye on the collection container.

        fix all of your leaks and focus on the dangerous dust.

        Comment


        • dbhost

          dbhost
          commented
          Editing a comment
          I understand it if you think I am, but you are incorrect in thinking I am concentrating on the bottom of the saw. More correct to say I am wanting to keep it from getting junked up. I have no qualms whatsoever throttling the port pulling from it. Of particular concern is the blade shroud not the belly pan. Reason being during dado operations that blade shroud can and will get jammed up QUICK witout dust / shavings extraction of some sort Anything that bypasses the Shark Guard / above table collection, AND the blade shroud I want to keep it from building up on the mechanical bits and bobs as it were inside the saw...

          I fully agree most consumer / home / DIYer gear is woefully under ported...

          The jointer and planer I have are both better served by a shop vac / trash can separator.

          The sander probably needs, no, not probably, definately needs to have a 4" port rigged somewhere close by WHILE the 2.5" is plugged in. Even with a shop vac a lot of sanding dust flies off that belt...

          Oddly enough, I don't see a LOT of sawdust on top of the bandsaw table, it all shows up underneath. Although with the 5" it might not be a bad idea to 5x4x4 there, then pull a 4" above, and then a 4x2.5x2.5 below to keep safe, and clean...

          The miter saw. Oh the sliding miter saw. The tool singluarly effective at blowing fine dust everywhere no matter what you try to capture it...

        • cwsmith
          cwsmith commented
          Editing a comment
          The miter saw I have (Ridgid 10-inch, purchased in 2005) is impossible when it comes to sawdust control. I only use it when necessary and try to just take it outside. When I working in the attic and 2nd floor areas, I set up a tarp on the floor with a second at the back of the saw like a curtain. My RAS is much easier to capture the dust from.

          I do have a small Ryobi bandsaw and that's an easy dust capture. The belt/disk sander is a problem, but I don't use it all that much. As said by others, my orbital and finish sander produces the worst dust because it is so fine. Having a good flexible hose attached is a great help though.

          CWS
      • Jim Frye
        Veteran Member
        • Dec 2002
        • 1051
        • Maumee, OH, USA.
        • Ryobi BT3000 & BT3100

        #7
        Sorta like the law of diminishing returns. I collect from every power tool that cuts, including sanders. The exhaust from my shop vac is ducted to a sound box and it has almost no dust in it when I empty the vac. tub, so the filter must be working. My shop built ambient air filter with computer room filters turns the air in the shop every 3.5 minutes. I look at what the two doormats collect leading out of the shop to see what is getting left behind. One at the door and one at the base of the stairs leading up to the house. What makes the most dust in my shop are the hand tools. Haven't figured out a way to hook a hose to a hand saw. A key factor not discussed here yet is time. Do you spend 8 hours a day in the shop cutting wood? I don't. The couple of hours maybe every other day are minimal in my mindset. I recently had an opportunity to walk through the millwork shop of the hardwood dealer I buy from. This is a big shop with a huge dust collection system.and no ambient air filter. They also have another shop at the other end of the facility where they rip and plane stock for sale. Neither shop area was any cleaner than my little 12'x22'x8' shop. They spend 8+ hours a day in those shops and no masks. I'd say, do what makes you comfortable and what you can afford for dust collection.
        Jim Frye
        The Nut in the Cellar.
        ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

        Comment

        • dbhost
          Slow and steady
          • Apr 2008
          • 9209
          • League City, Texas
          • Ryobi BT3100

          #8
          Awesome discussion folks.

          Tonight I spent time cleaning up the miter saw bench. Mind you, I have been chucking stuff on the bench, behind the saw etc... and ended up just not turning the DC on any time I used it over the past year. There is literally 1" of sawdust on the shelf. When I actually use the DC it does collect, but there is always a fine dusting left over. So I would use the ambient air filter.

          I got to the situation where I have gotten lazy about a lot of things in the shop, dust collection included, thus I am trying to fix those issues.

          And honestly the more time I have been spending in the shop, the more therepeutic I am finding it...

          Oh FWIW, I have a frequest from LOML. I have an order for a set of flocked pecan coasters. Easy peasy but need to get them done AFTER the cleanup is done... And yes, before the DC ducting is upsized...
          Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

          Comment

          • Jim Frye
            Veteran Member
            • Dec 2002
            • 1051
            • Maumee, OH, USA.
            • Ryobi BT3000 & BT3100

            #9
            One thing I adopted some time ago was to clean the shop between projects. I even mop the floor to get that last bit of grit and since I don't have any "stationary" tools, it's easy to get all of the floor covered. Every couple of years, I crank the air filter up to high, fire up the air compressor, and blow everything off. Basement shops have all sorts of nooks, crannies, and cubbies to catch dust. Yes, I wear a mask then.
            Jim Frye
            The Nut in the Cellar.
            ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

            Comment

            • Slik Geek
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2006
              • 669
              • Lake County, Illinois
              • Ryobi BT-3000

              #10
              Originally posted by dbhost
              MOST, but not all of us that are using some sort of dust collector, are using some kind of small 110v collector, and the most popular it seems is the cheap Harbor Freight 2HP dust collector that we all acknowledge is less than ideal, but is being pressed into service anyway.

              We make do the best we can with our 2HP motors by installing the largest impellers that will fit (Wen or Rikon 12" possibly others), adding some sort of separator, and swapping out the dust pump bag filter for a MERV15 pleated filter like the Wynn...

              We add some method of separating fines / chips so they don't clog up the filter quite so fast, and we make our runs as short, smooth, and straight as physically possible in order to keep from taking too big of a hit to our airflow.
              My first dust collector was a Craftsman Shop Vac with the stock filter, and the 2-1/2” diameter flex hose I was totally ignorant of the physics and medical aspects of dust collection. I gave myself a fierce dust allergy. I could walk into the front of a Home Depot and tell you within 10 seconds that they had used their panel saw in the back of the store within the past hour because my allergy (flu-like) symptoms would kick in.

              My next dust collector was a Delta 50-665 1.5 HP operating on 220V, perched on a 55 gallon drum, upgraded with an oversized singed felt collection bag, and later upgraded with a Thien separator. I was using 4” flex hose. That helped, but I still had to continuously wear N95 masks. Dust collection was reasonably effective but not great.

              Originally posted by dbhost
              USE A RESPIRATOR! Been doing that for years. And while I don't use it as often as I should I use it ANY TIME I work with any woods I know are reactive like Walnut...
              I used my N95 mask continually, for ANY wood. Otherwise I would suffer for days.

              Originally posted by dbhost
              Install and use an ambient air cleaner. My Grizzly G0572 lives on the ceiling and takes no floor space, runs on readily available 110v power, and is high enough off the ground I don's smash my dome into it.
              I use the Jet ambient air cleaner. It helps, but it is only a supplement to good dust collection at the source (which won't get everything), especially on the miter saw.

              Originally posted by dbhost
              My workshop is a garage workshop, with 8' celings, barely.
              Many of the big 3+ HP cyclone rigs are simply too tall for my space.
              And what about the folks in basement shops with even less headroom?
              But let's say for example finances weren't a concern. And I could afford a ClearVue CV1950 for example.
              Then, in 2016, I realized my health was paramount, so my dust collector was my most important tool investment. I bought Clear Vue CV1800, paid for it in six installments. I installed 6” Sewer and Drain PVC tubing, virtually eliminating all flex tubing. It was a great decision, my dust allergy has significantly decreased and I don’t have to wear a mask continually, only strategically.

              Originally posted by dbhost
              ...a ClearVue CV1950 ...Now they don't list the dimensions, but looking at the pic, and realizing the dust bin they show is a 55 gallon steel drum, thus I can measure distances of the pic, and come up with a height of around 9 feet. Meaning without any way to move the dust bin out from under it, I would have to basically smash a hole into my attic to fit this thing. Not gonna happen.
              My basement shop has 8' ceilings, but I can go higher between the floor "joints" because the first floor is supported by 22" floor trusses. I put a shorter barrel under my cyclone to minimize the height, but the motor is still over 8'. This cyclone has a 6" diameter port.
              I have three dust connections to my BT-3000. 2-1/2" on my Shark Guard (it is an old one), 4" to 2-1/2" adapter into the port on the saw, a 4" duct into the base of the BT-3000 (with some additional sealing).

              Good points and questions!

              Comment


              • dbhost

                dbhost
                commented
                Editing a comment
                Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the CV1800, but even with a short drum like you mentioned, it would be in my attic. I just can't do that... And the power requirements are too high for my shop.

                Honestly, if I could source up JUST the blower assembly, a 3HP blower assembly including the output flange, like the one in the Shop Fox or Grizzly 3HP machines, but maybe an 8" output flange, pulling through a Super Dust Deputy XL and blowing through a regular stack of 2 MERV15 filters with a clean out would be ideal. Shorter stack entirely, and well within the capacity of my circuits... Just 5HP at 220v is over 20 amps and, well... just outside of my breaker capacity. And I don't want to rewire.
                Last edited by dbhost; 01-19-2022, 04:22 PM.
            • Jim Frye
              Veteran Member
              • Dec 2002
              • 1051
              • Maumee, OH, USA.
              • Ryobi BT3000 & BT3100

              #11
              My lathe also has a shopvac connection for chip collection. The torque box frame traps most of the turning waste so it's easy to just sweep them to the vac ports. I don't turn a lot so this works for me. Click image for larger version

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              Jim Frye
              The Nut in the Cellar.
              ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

              Comment

              • capncarl
                Veteran Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 3564
                • Leesburg Georgia USA
                • SawStop CTS

                #12
                Glad someone mentioned Dust Deputy. Maybe it is also time to stop fanning the flame on the Thein separator and focus on the small line of cyclones that are available now at a reasonable cost. They seem to do something that the Thein never did, the actually remove fine dust. I can’t remember them being available when the Thein was popular.
                Owners of bag type collectors could well utilize the small cyclones. And shop vacuum users could greatly increase their vacuums usefulness by not having to clean filters continuously.

                Comment


                • dbhost

                  dbhost
                  commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Not saying you are wrong or right here, but in my experience, the Thien baffle with the right drop slot size, does do a good job at fine dust separation for my shop vac, and did do a fine job with the HF DC, that wasn't why I removed it from the DC, it is that it was too much of a bottlneck CFM wise.

                  The hit to airflow of a separator of any kind is there, and the Thien baffle while effective from what i have seen, and cheap, for me was too costly CFM wise.

                  NOW I do know with a wider drop slot, you get more fine dust blowby, but I went with whatever measurements Phil recommended.

                  Honestly I am probably just out of space considerations going to replace the trash can Thien with a Bauer mini cyclone and get a 7 gallon bucket from the brewers supply as 5 runs out just a hair too fast... I just don't need to be changing out 30 gallons of fines and shavings from something that isn't pre bagged...
              • dbhost
                Slow and steady
                • Apr 2008
                • 9209
                • League City, Texas
                • Ryobi BT3100

                #13
                Thanks Jim Frye for posting your dust hood / lathe pic.

                For anyone else participating in this discussion. Can you post pics of your updated / improved dust hoods / collection points and let us know how well they are working out for you?

                On my bandsaw, I had previously made a dust port for 4" at the OE location by the lower blade guide, and it was horrible. just didn't work any better, and in many ways worse than the OE port. Sadly I lost the OE port, and ended up ordering one for a Jet 14" bandsaw as it looked to be the same thing, except the port size is actually fitting for 2.5" vac hose instead of 1.75 or whatever the OE was. I also added a port to as far down and left as I could go on the lower wheel guard.

                I haven't gotten much use out of the reconfiguration, but what I do is showing much less dust all around. I don't get a lot above table, but I do need to do something about that still..

                Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by dbhost; 01-19-2022, 05:50 PM.
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                • dbhost
                  Slow and steady
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 9209
                  • League City, Texas
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #14
                  And another one. The BT3100 fitted with the Shark Guard, I swapped the 2.5" port back out for the 4". I originally swapped the 2.5" in because the 4" has a habit of sucking up thin strips...

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                  Last edited by dbhost; 01-19-2022, 05:51 PM.
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                  • LCHIEN
                    Internet Fact Checker
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 20920
                    • Katy, TX, USA.
                    • BT3000 vintage 1999

                    #15
                    Dave, your pictures aren't showing up the last two posts.

                    But I think your focus on the top collection of the table saw is wrong.

                    Look at how a table saw blade cuts... the blade turns forward and the teeth cut the wood. The wood is normally constrained by the sides of the kerf and the gullet between the teeth captures and pulls the cuttings in the gullet down until it is below the table and then drops them free on the side of the kerf, below the table top due to gravity and centrifugal forces. This results in the dust going into the shroud of the BT saws or into the space below the table where it falls to the belly pan if you have one.

                    In a cut where there is wood on both sides of the blade the only way a lot of dust is going to come off the top above the table is if the cuttings ride all the way around the bottom and back up the rear and are finally tossed above the table... gravity and centrifugal forces has to be over come for this to happen.

                    The only time I get a lot of cuttings on the top is when I shave off 1/16th inch or so to clean up an edge... in this case one side of the kerf is open so it throws a great deal of the cuttings to the left side of the blade onto the table top.

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                    New improved picture:

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                    The acceleration slinging the dust particles off can be calculated.
                    R=5" for a 10-inch blade and w= 5000 RPM = 83.3 rev/sec for a BT3000/3100 (Faster than many table saws)

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                    acceleration = 2893 ft/sec^2 or about 90 G's.

                    That's a lot of force slinging the cuttings off the blade. Not many are going to survive the ride around the saw.

                    Last edited by LCHIEN; 01-20-2022, 11:06 AM.
                    Loring in Katy, TX USA
                    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
                    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

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                    • dbhost

                      dbhost
                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I'll fix the images. It's a google photos thing. I am trying to avoid hosting my pics here but Google in a royal pain in the butt for photo sharing...

                      I am familiar with the concept, which is why I am keeping the 2.5" on the blade shroud, and the 4" on the belly pan, but honesty I don't care so much about the belly pan.

                      A bit contrary to your pic though, sawdust does come off the top of the blade, honestly not sure how, probably not getting left in the blade shroud as the blade spins, and I am just trying to keep from breathing it in. And as I mentioned, with the 2.5" port since the upgrade to the Wen impeller, it wil suck UP the hose hard enough it picks the blade guard UP away from the blade and away from doing its job. I'd rather move more air at less negative pressure so the blade guard stays put.

                      No matter the reasoning, I figure no real harm can come from running the 4" on top as long as I keep the 2.5" at the shroud connected...
                      Last edited by dbhost; 01-19-2022, 07:17 PM.
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