I want AMERICAN tools now....

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • dbhost
    Slow and steady
    • Apr 2008
    • 9231
    • League City, Texas
    • Ryobi BT3100

    I want AMERICAN tools now....

    I know it is going to take quite a bit of time, but I want to change out, as best as I can afford, to fully North American made tools. USA, Canada, and Mexico only. Or at the very least, jettison anything Chinese made out of my shop.

    I will likely be looking at used to keep costs lower, but will buy new where I can.

    My biggest issues are going to be my woodworking tools are mostlly lower tier stuff, Ryobi, Central Machinery etc...

    What recommendations do you folks have (without any politics) for specifics to rebuild the shop Chinese producxtion free?
    Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.
  • capncarl
    Veteran Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 3569
    • Leesburg Georgia USA
    • SawStop CTS

    #2
    American made, I can’t think of a single one. Non Chinese, Festool? I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that some components of eastern made tools are made in China.
    Looking forward to comments, I’m willing to start swapping out! My Powermatic 64 is made in China. A lot of my mechanics tools are mfg from 1960s - 1980s, those after that are likely Chinese mfg.

    Comment

    • leehljp
      Just me
      • Dec 2002
      • 8441
      • Tunica, MS
      • BT3000/3100

      #3
      To what degree do you not wish to bring politics into it? You may not be aware of it but your statement already does. Hong Kong is Chinese but they (Hong Kong) does NOT like China and are not totally governed by China; Taiwan is anti-China and verbally fighting China in declaring that they, Taiwan is their own country. Tiawan made is not Chinese made

      Ryobi - that is a Japanese Name and Japanese product. Some tools are made in Hong Kong though.
      Ryobi made is not Chinese made, although some products are made in Hong Kong.

      "Ryobi Seisakusho Co., Ltd. was founded in 1943, with the sale of die cast products commencing a year later. In 1961 the company began manufacturing offset printing presses and was listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange; production of power tools began in 1968. The company's name changed in 1973 to its current one.[4] Ryobi operates 12 manufacturing facilities across six countries. In 1985, Ryobi launched production in Shelbyville, Indiana, its only manufacturing location in the United States.[5] Ryobi signed an official partnership deal with German football team Hertha Berlin in 2014.[6] Power tools[edit]

      The Ryobi Tools brand in North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand is licensed by Techtronic Industries of Hong Kong, an original equipment manufacturer for brands such as Milwaukee, AEG (AEG Powertools, licensed from Electrolux), Ryobi, Homelite, Hoover US, Dirt Devil, and Vax. Around 1988, Ryobi purchased the assets of the former Diehl Motor Company (a one-time division of Singer Corporation), which was the supplier of Sears Craftsman hand-held power tools. After the purchase, Ryobi continued to supply Sears with power tools. These tools typically had a model number beginning with "315" or "973".

      In the United States and Canada, Ryobi power tools are sold primarily through Home Depot and the Internet. In Australia and New Zealand the line is sold exclusively by Bunnings Warehouse. In the UK the power tools are sold at hardware stores.



      CENTRAL MACHINERY - Taiwan, not China. Apples and oranges.
      Last edited by leehljp; 04-14-2020, 06:18 PM.
      Hank Lee

      Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

      Comment

      • cwsmith
        Veteran Member
        • Dec 2005
        • 2742
        • NY Southern Tier, USA.
        • BT3100-1

        #4
        dbhost,

        I'm afraid you are going to be at a loss my friend. Even the most American of companies are going to be Chinese in some respect. But that said, you have to look at it from Lee's perspective, the labeling "Chinese" does not necessarily mean that it's made in, or on, mainland China! A good example of that is Ridgid, which for the most part is made in Taiwan, certainly not a "Chinese" company, but it is a company that for decades has it's castings and tools made in Taiwan. Ryobi is a company started by an Englishman with a Hong Kong partner and at the time of it's creation I believe it was still a British protectorate. Yes, it's governed by the People's Republic of China now, but that's not at all to the liking of those bread and born in Hong Kong.

        Heck man, you're not going to find much of anything that isn't made in "China", but remember it may be Taiwan, Hong Kong, and yes, even on the mainland, but who is responsible for that? The Chinese, or is it the American CEO and Board of Directors and the American stockholders AND the particular political party that favors big corporations?

        But what is American these days? I spent much or my life working for Ingersoll-Rand Company in Painted Post, NY. At one time the world's largest compressor plant and it has a history going back into the late 1800's. We provided the compressors and the rock-drills to carve Mt. Rushmore, to dig the Panama Canal, to carve a highway across the Alps, and in WWi we converted the plant to make artillery shells, and in WWII engines for Liberty Ships and in my time we made compressors for the oil industry, highway, bridge, and building construction; even for blowing out short circuits in the power industry (right after the big black out in the late 60's). We supplied hundreds of ships and submarines and even invented the first compressors for automotive applications; and we built the engines and pumps to drain the overflow of the Great Salt Lake. We built and installed the first compressor systems in the Alberta oil sands, and our equipment is in almost every oil refinery in the entire world... including Saudi Arabia and Russia!

        Today, we make many or those compressors in Shanghai, where they are routinely sent back to Painted Post for repair and fitting.... and then (so I've been told) we stick "Made in the U.S.A" on them!

        My plant had 4,300 employees when I went to work there in 1973. (For eight years prior to that I was a contractor to that plant.) I was there at the end of the last Century when the management thought it would be great to build in China and I was there in 2000, when the management decided it was more affordable to build in China and make people like me "contractors" so they didn't have to provide benefits to us American workers, and I was still there in 2003, when I was fed enough to state my case and they threw me out after thirty years of service!

        (Edit: I should note that around 1985, Ingersoll-Rand entered into a joint venture with Dresser Industries, involving six plants between the two corporations. Three plants were closed, with the I-R Painted Post Plant, Dresser Olean, and Dresser Wellsville plants remaining. The new company was named "Dresser-Rand" and initially I-R was the dominant partner, but within just a couple of years I-R sold a small interest, thus making Dresser the dominant partner. Dresser was later acquired by Halliburton, and Dresser-Rand became it's own, privately-held corporation which then started to spiral, cutting many products and favoring move other to China and India. Within this last decade, Dresser-Rand was purchased by Siemens, based in Germany. Ingersoll-Rand still has facilities here in the U.S, but also overseas. At present they are headquartered in Ireland. Mystery to me is that a web search indicates I-R is now owned by Trane, but that is in question to me! Likewise a Wikipedia search indicates that Ingersoll-Rand was initially "Gardner-Denver"... that totally wrong, G-D was always a competitor and never had any other connection to Ingersoll-Rand. [At one time I was charged with the Painted Post plant's history!])

        But let me tell you, no body forced it, no one came from China to offer anyone a great bargain, and certainly no body in China put a gun to the head of our management. Today we have less than 600 employees in Painted Post, I and many of my friends have been laid off, and let me tell you first hand that I don't hold a single Chinese official or citizen responsible for that!

        It's not political, but it is the facts of greed and maximizing profit over long-term benefit to America and it's workers. But our corporate people and too many of our politicians don't think in terms of years, decades, and centuries; they think only of what this month's bottom line is. Whether you are a CEO or particular kind of politician, it is only this month's or this year's figures that matter and that the agenda that they all want us to believe is that it's never their fault, it's always another countries!

        CWS
        Last edited by cwsmith; 04-15-2020, 02:15 PM.
        Think it Through Before You Do!

        Comment

        • woodturner
          Veteran Member
          • Jun 2008
          • 2047
          • Western Pennsylvania
          • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

          #5
          Originally posted by dbhost
          I know it is going to take quite a bit of time, but I want to change out, as best as I can afford, to fully North American made tools. USA, Canada, and Mexico only. Or at the very least, jettison anything Chinese made out of my shop.
          Sounds like you will be working in the dark with older hand tools.

          Depending on how strict you intend to be, it may not be possible to achieve this. Anything electronic or electrical or plastic most likely has some non-North American content.

          Even "made in USA" brands have foreign components.

          --------------------------------------------------
          Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

          Comment

          • dbhost
            Slow and steady
            • Apr 2008
            • 9231
            • League City, Texas
            • Ryobi BT3100

            #6
            Originally posted by capncarl
            American made, I can’t think of a single one. Non Chinese, Festool? I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that some components of eastern made tools are made in China.s
            Looking forward to comments, I’m willing to start swapping out! My Powermatic 64 is made in China. A lot of my mechanics tools are mfg from 1960s - 1980s, those after that are likely Chinese mfg.
            My most curent "bought when in the business mechanics tools" are Craftsman branded from the mid 90s, and are stamped USA. I noted Chinese tools started really ramping up in the mid / late 90s. HOWEVER, the stuff I have bought since then, including most / much of my woodworking tools are Chinese production, due to affordability, and availability. I wanted to get the shop up and running NOW.

            In many ways, I wish I had geared up my shop before my Dad sold his 1950s / 1960s Craftsman / Rockwell equipment.

            I remember seeing "Taiwan" tools back in the 1980s, back then having that stamp on your tools meant that the tools themselves were vastly inferior products. When I went back to College in the 90s and was selling tools, was when companies like B&D, Skil, etc.... really ramped up China production.
            Last edited by dbhost; 04-15-2020, 08:26 AM.
            Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

            Comment

            • capncarl
              Veteran Member
              • Jan 2007
              • 3569
              • Leesburg Georgia USA
              • SawStop CTS

              #7
              I visit local pawn shops frequently and bar none every one will have some Snap On tool sets for sale. They are usually in the glass cases like the diamond rings and high dollar pistols. A used Snap On socket set with a ratchet will sometimes sell for $250. Harbor Freights Icon line of tools that supposedly compete with Snap On will sell for around $100. Not a lot of incentive to buy American.

              Comment

              • Jim Frye
                Veteran Member
                • Dec 2002
                • 1051
                • Maumee, OH, USA.
                • Ryobi BT3000 & BT3100

                #8
                I’ve given up. My BT3000 is all American, but my BT3100 is Chinese, hence the $200 price delta. I struggled with the decision to buy my Ryobi RM480 electric riding mower instead of something else, but analysis showed outstanding design & engineering, just like the BT3Ks. I think the move by greedy corporations to shift production overseas has been fraught with problems from the beginning. I recall the problems with Chinese made parts for Powermatic tools. It is really difficult to find quality products now. My Son works in the automotive supply chain and has to deal with overseas part rejection rates of up to 50%. A company that doesn’t keep a close watch on QA will deliver subpar products and a lot of American companies just don’t do that. We had a Cuisinart coffee maker (made in China) that would fail under the one year warranty repeatedly. After the fourth failure, they replaced it with a more expensive model that did work.
                Jim Frye
                The Nut in the Cellar.
                ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

                Comment

                • leehljp
                  Just me
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 8441
                  • Tunica, MS
                  • BT3000/3100

                  #9
                  Quite a bit of this process IS political, or have politics at its foundation. Back in the early 90's, GWBush made his way to Japan to get Japan to open its markets to US exports. One item was beef. Japan was not a big "beef" eater because of the expense of beef raised in country (Japan). As part of the deal to accept US beef and reduce the trade imbalance, Japan was allowed to have a say in how the US beef was raised. They liked marbled fatty beef all prime - like the sometimes known "Kobe" beef. The deal allowed Japan group of farm investment companies to buy huge ranches in TX, OK, CO, Kansas (and other states) and then these Japanese owned and run ranches sent their beef to Japan, which counted as US export. The US beef industry did not benefit from this deal, but the balance sheet DID show it as export to Japan.

                  Politics muddle the fine lines considerably.

                  And US companies don't often hold their "specifications" on manufacturing to as tight as they would in the USA. Apple is one company that demands and holds its overseas operations to tight specs and have backup companies ready to make their products if the original manufacturer does not hold to the specs. When their "circle" building headquarters was being built, the original contractor was fired early on. While most builders know that wood, steel and other products expand, contract at a given rate per temp and humidity, 1/4" allowance per X feet of building space, Apple's Steve Jobs demanded 1/8". An argument ensued and the contractor was fired and a new one brought in.

                  Companies are generally ill prepared to challenge the QC production cross culturally and end up accepting lesser quality. Politics often play a part in making US companies accept this. On the other hand MANY US companies do not produce the highest quality products when the politics of unions prevent reprimand of an unqualified or lazy worker. It only takes one to screw up an entire QC production. Shipping overseas or other country eliminates this, but then other issues come into play. Round and round we go!
                  Hank Lee

                  Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                  Comment

                  • cwsmith
                    Veteran Member
                    • Dec 2005
                    • 2742
                    • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                    • BT3100-1

                    #10
                    "when the politics of unions prevent reprimand of an unqualified or lazy worker."

                    I realize of course that different companies and different contracts may well play into this thought and certainly regions in our country may have a part in it too. In the thirty-eight plus years (thirty years as an employee, and more than eight as a sub-contractor) I worked in heavy industrial manufacturing, about the only ill effect I saw with some union employees was "laziness", and that was more in the form of a handful of 'connected' (mostly nepotism) individuals just drifting off to areas that they don't work in, and therefore can't be found. But frankly, that was far more prevalent in the salaried work force than in the union.

                    The biggest goofs in the company were by first-line supervisors and their immediate managers who were always doing 'stupid' things that were counter productive or down right awful. When the corporation decided to enter the Total Quality Management era, I was an instructor for three years. I really came to know the shop workers and found almost every one of them frustrated with the poor practices that were carried out by too many line foremen. Too many skipped steps, wrong machine assignments, just overall a rush-to-ship attitude so they could get their bonuses. I can't begin to tell you how many times I felt it necessary to look into things and write a report along with my weekly class summations. TQM led to a lot of positive changes because it led to more input from the people actually doing the work of machining and assembly. Unfortunately when the TQM finished, it didn't take a year for management to reinforce their dominance and quality slipped back to the degree that it was before. A few years later we saw massive layoffs as we moved most of the production to China!

                    CWS




                    Think it Through Before You Do!

                    Comment

                    • d_meister
                      Established Member
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 185
                      • La Conner, WA.
                      • BT3000

                      #11
                      Originally posted by cwsmith
                      "when the politics of unions prevent reprimand of an unqualified or lazy worker."

                      I realize of course that different companies and different contracts may well play into this thought and certainly regions in our country may have a part in it too. In the thirty-eight plus years (thirty years as an employee, and more than eight as a sub-contractor) I worked in heavy industrial manufacturing, about the only ill effect I saw with some union employees was "laziness", and that was more in the form of a handful of 'connected' (mostly nepotism) individuals just drifting off to areas that they don't work in, and therefore can't be found. But frankly, that was far more prevalent in the salaried work force than in the union.

                      The biggest goofs in the company were by first-line supervisors and their immediate managers who were always doing 'stupid' things that were counter productive or down right awful. When the corporation decided to enter the Total Quality Management era, I was an instructor for three years. I really came to know the shop workers and found almost every one of them frustrated with the poor practices that were carried out by too many line foremen. Too many skipped steps, wrong machine assignments, just overall a rush-to-ship attitude so they could get their bonuses. I can't begin to tell you how many times I felt it necessary to look into things and write a report along with my weekly class summations. TQM led to a lot of positive changes because it led to more input from the people actually doing the work of machining and assembly. Unfortunately when the TQM finished, it didn't take a year for management to reinforce their dominance and quality slipped back to the degree that it was before. A few years later we saw massive layoffs as we moved most of the production to China!

                      CWS



                      Thanks for bringing that up. I think any discussion about Buy American" or claims that certain countries have better/worse qualities needs to bring up the quality revolution that started in Japan in the '50s. Japan hired American statistical expert Dr. W. Edwards Deming to help them overcome the stigma of "Made In Japan" being the hallmark of shoddy product. He went to Japan and laid out his 14 Point Plan that would, he claimed, reverse the quality problems in the country's products in 5 years.Notice it's about Japan and not just a company. They followed his advice and managed it in 4 years. The story is inspiring, and makes us all wonder about why the U.S. didn't recognize the progress and follow suit immediately, instead of jumping on the bandwagon late in the game, sometime in the '80s. Ford was one of the first to recognize the Deming quality processes and adopt them in the '80s. Sounds like Ingersoll Rand did, as well.
                      A lot of the "Made in Japan" product that was really poor quality was due to the foreign buyers shopping for the lowest price, and the same held true for Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Mainland China. As woodworkers, we should be mindful of companies like Grizzly, who have used Chinese manufacture built to high standards all along, as Delta did with Taiwan. We should recognize that it may not be the machinist in China that is happy with a poor finish, but the management that brings junk to our shores.
                      There are so many stories of success and failure in manufacturing, and the one that left me scratching my head was one I read about recently. A manufacturer of face masks in Texas who wasn't going to expand his companies production because of what it would cost in terms of layoffs after the demand decreases, and, saying all the while that he can't compete with low cost offshore masks in terms of price. At the same time he was being interviewed, 3M put their skates on and got with the program expanding N95 medical mask production. The thing about that I found most striking, is that 3M makes the best products in the world, most of them here in the U.S. and sells them all at a price higher than most competitors.
                      As Hank points out, world trade is a political issue. I remember a 60 Minutes story years ago about how Stanley tools moved their Headquarters to Bermuda, and saved a bundle in taxes. It didn't get many people off their couches to write their Congressmen. Maybe as the internet communication avenues develop, we can make the government more responsive. Even now. money speaks louder than the rest of us, because it's in the same room.
                      The documentaries about Dr. W. Edwards Deming are on YouTube, HERE. The first one is a little slow, but it isn't long. A lot of us here on Sawdust Zone are in the same age group, so it's worth watching to take a little trip down memory lane

                      Comment

                      • durango dude
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 934
                        • a thousand or so feet above insanity
                        • 50s vintage Craftsman Contractor Saw

                        #12
                        I understand the "Made in Merica" mindset ---- heck - I have a bit of it. 2 years ago, I had 2 Wheel Horse tractors and a harley.

                        Now, I have a Deere in the shed (x570) ----- which is ASSEMBLED in USA (Horicon) ----- but almost entirely with Chinese parts.
                        I buy Stihl equipment - which is German stuff assembled in Virginia.

                        Hand tools can be found (Lie Nielsen). Soon as you put a motor - you're in Asia, most of the time.

                        Woodpeckers has a nice factory in Ohio.

                        Power tools?
                        - Delta Unisaw or Saw Stop (both USA)
                        - Dewalt (Assembled in USA)
                        - Some Milwaukee tools are USA
                        - Powermatic
                        - Laguna

                        As you can see -- you stand better chances of getting EQUIPMENT made in USA than hand-held power tools.

                        Comment

                        • JamieRI
                          Forum Newbie
                          • Feb 2020
                          • 11
                          • Rhode Island
                          • BT3000

                          #13
                          Very good and thoughtful discussion! I just spent a couple of hours learning about W. Edwards Deming, thank you for that reference.

                          Comment

                          Working...