sharpeners

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  • chopnhack
    Veteran Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 3779
    • Florida
    • Ryobi BT3100

    #16
    The angle doesn't need to be so precise. Many folks fudge the angle and it works just as well. I'll go one further and tell you that putting a secondary bevel or micro bevel at the very tip works really well. The grinders are useful, but only for putting a hollow bevel into the chisel, the honing and polishing which can be done solely with sandpaper grits on a piece of granite or glass is a great method. Try it out again and keep your hand steady, the startup costs are much lower than say a tormek! Using the scary sharp method I have been able to convince the hair on my arm to move elsewhere

    More on angles: different angles work better in different woods, experiment to see for yourself. Sometimes a steeper angle will work in a tougher wood. This is also dependent on tool steel hardness, softer steel will deform quicker with a steeper angle and require more frequent sharpening.
    I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

    Comment

    • pelligrini
      Veteran Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 4217
      • Fort Worth, TX
      • Craftsman 21829

      #17
      I had difficulties like that when sharpening at first too. I could get close by hand, but still not get anything very sharp. That all changed when I picked up the Veritas MK-II jig.

      I've been thinking about getting a worksharp though. My luck with the old planes I have been buying has been terrible. Most all the irons have needed a lot of work, and then some.
      Erik

      Comment

      • SARGE..g-47

        #18
        "The angle doesn't need to be so precise. Many folks fudge the angle and it works just as well. I'll go one further and tell you that putting a secondary bevel or micro bevel at the very tip works really well. The grinders are useful, but only for putting a hollow bevel into the chisel, the honing and polishing which can be done solely with sandpaper grits on a piece of granite or glass is a great method"... chopnhack

        I couldn't agree more about having to have a precision angle. And the use of a secondary bevel speeds things up tremendously. If you hone a single bevel at a constant degree all the way to the tip for your primary you are covering a lot of area each time you sharpen. But.. once you take the grind marks out of a primary and add a secondary to a small area on the tip.. you only have to concentrate on the tip when re-sharpening. The tip or point where the flat back of a flattened chisel meets the front bevel is what does the work so why waste time on the entire bevel?

        "When I become as polished as "Sarge" I probably will be able to use the more educated methods"..... DM

        What I was basically trying to get across was that scary sharp is not a more educated or more complex method and just the opposite in reality. Again... I think it is the least complex.. cleanest and quickest method. If you don't feel confident in a hand hold you can use a honing guide with it. I did for several years after hand holding for many.. then going back to hand hold as it just took too much time for me personally to set up the jig.

        I am going to post 5 projects that required a lot of chisel work done in the last year. I can tell you that I have no real clue as to what the current angle on my secondary bevel is and could really care less. I can also tell you that at least one of my tips is slightly skewed and not square to the chisel. But.. I can see that and simply compensate when using by skewing the hold. And a skew comes in awful handy cleaning out hand cut DT waste and any other corner angles, etc.

        Now find the flaws in the project pictures after I tell you I have no true clue what the angle is.. that at least one of my tips is skewed and not square.
        I spent 30 minutes just last night re-sharpening 4 chisels... the 3/8" had some gaps that required extra work on an 80 grit to remove before progressing to higher grits. It is one of my DT waste choppers and gets the work of a light mortise chisel so to speak. But the chisels are now sharp again using a simple method... a reasonable time and cheap which is right up an old retiree's alley. So.. ready to proceed with a crochet-lamp table on my work-bench in progress.

        When they're sharp.. they're sharp... work awaits! ...
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • phi1l
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 681
          • Madison, WI

          #19
          My grandfather was an old Norwegian tool & die maker from the old country. By the time I knew him, he was retired, but still had a couple of small machine shops that he got from going out of business sales, where he would go & tinker on stuff.

          When ever I could, I would try & tag along, 'cause those shops had some really neat stuff in them. Once when I was about 8, he asked me if I wanted to be a tool & die maker. I said "SURE!!!"

          "OK, den", he said, "Jou need to learn how file a side flat".

          He gave me a piece of steel & a rather fine toothed file & said "Here, practice on this."

          I took the file & the steel, & went over to a work bench & got to work. A few seconds later, I looked at what I had done, & the edges were all rounded over. "OOHHHH", I said to myself, "that's what he meant".

          So I wen back to work with the file, being very very careful to try & keep that file a perfectly flat as I moved cross the steel. I tried & tried & tried, but I never could manage to file anything to a nice crisp edge. So, after about 5 minutes I gave up & went off to see what grandpa was up to. It was not until many years later with grad kids of my own, that I finally understood that he knew exactly what would happen, & just need me kept busy while he got some work done.

          That year I got a nice little Burgess band saw for my birthday, from my grand father (much to my mother's dismay, I might add). My dad & I made a few things with the band saw, & then the strangest think happened, the band saw disappeared, only to reappear about 4 years later.

          But I digress.


          The point of all this is we live in a different time now, than when my grandfather. He once showed my some of the pieces he made using just a file. It must have taken him many days of work with a file to produce those. We don't have that kind of time anymore, unfortunately . Very few people smoke pipes anymore.

          Get a honing guide. You will never be able to hold a chisel at any angle, let alone the angle you want long enough to make a scary sharp edge. We no longer need to do that, even if we did have the time. It takes years to develop the muscle memory to sharpen a chisel by hand, & I don't think your family would understand.

          Comment

          • SARGE..g-47

            #20
            ["OK, den", he said, "Jou need to learn how file a side flat".

            He gave me a piece of steel & a rather fine toothed file & said "Here, practice on this."

            I took the file & the steel, & went over to a work bench & got to work. A few seconds later, I looked at what I had done, & the edges were all rounded over. "OOHHHH", I said to myself, "that's what he meant".

            "So I wen back to work with the file, being very very careful to try & keep that file a perfectly flat as I moved cross the steel. I tried & tried & tried, but I never could manage to file anything to a nice crisp edge. So, after about 5 minutes I gave up & went off to see what grandpa was up to.

            Why do you suppose your Grand-father could and you couldn't?


            The point of all this is we live in a different time now, than when my grandfather. He once showed my some of the pieces he made using just a file. It must have taken him many days of work with a file to produce those. We don't have that kind of time anymore, unfortunately . Very few people smoke pipes anymore.

            Get a honing guide. You will never be able to hold a chisel at any angle, let alone the angle you want long enough to make a scary sharp edge. We no longer need to do that, even if we did have the time. It takes years to develop the muscle memory to sharpen a chisel by hand, & I don't think your family would understand.[/QUOTE]

            Your grand-father probably apprenticed in Europe. Woodworkers have to apprentice there still. The very first day you are given chisels and plane irons and told to get them sharp and don't bring them back until they are. That will usually take a sharp apprentice about a day to accomplish.. one that lacks determination and attitude of... I can - I will may take two to three days as he eventually gets tired of sharpening and he knows he will not move on to something else until he gets the job done or he simply quits.

            So.. "You will never be able to hold a chisel at any angle, let alone the angle you want long enough to make a scary sharp edge".. phi1l would probably be an opinion and not a fact in lieu of wood-working has been going on for over 5000 years and modern marvels of sharpening have only been around for the last 20 to 30.

            Does anyone suppose that the un-countable pieces of furniture that have been produced before the modern marvel of sharpening jigs and machines was all done with dull edges. I probably should not have gotten involved in a thread of this nature. I suppose I am somewhat of a pre-maddona that believed from day one in 1972 that I could learn to do anything that had been done in the past 5000 years with simple techniques available if the wood-workers that came long before me could do it.

            Personally if I didn't have the time or initiative to atttempt an honest effort before I gave in... I would just buy all my furniture at IKEA as in the long run it would save much time and money for that matter..But the proof is in the pudding and I like making my own pudding. With that said this old pre-madonna will go quietly back to the shop which is where I feel I probably best belong..

            Ya'll take care now...

            Comment

            • mpc
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2005
              • 979
              • Cypress, CA, USA.
              • BT3000 orig 13amp model

              #21
              I tired the "hold it by hand" technique, knowing that the absolute angle of the blade isn't important. 23, 24, 24.6543, 25, or 26 degrees doesn't matter much for chisels, plane blades, etc. But holding it consistently while sharpening is crucial and that was just not happening for me. I might have been able to practice for a while but, given how infrequently I need to sharpen things, whatever "touch" I developed would probably be lost/forgotten by the next time I needed it.

              The Veritas Mark II made sharpening much quicker & consistent for me; the WS3000 even more so.

              In my mind, it's like making dovetails. You can learn to do it the old-world craftsman way - by hand - or start with a modern router jig. Depends on your eventual goals. I'd like to develop the skills to do it by hand one day but for now the router jig saves me time and makes dovetails that work while I learn other skills. I use a Dewalt planer rather than hand planing. I'm learning the hand planing but it's not my goal to eventually replace the Dewalt with oodles of hand planes.

              mpc

              Comment

              • Norm in Fujino
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2002
                • 534
                • Fujino-machi, Kanagawa-ken, Japan.
                • Ryobi BT-3000

                #22
                I've never used one, but I've always heard the Makita 9820-2 gets good results.

                ==========
                ". . . and only the stump, or fishy part of him remained."
                Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

                Comment

                • chopnhack
                  Veteran Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 3779
                  • Florida
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #23
                  Well, I think the point of what Sarge is getting across is simply.... simplicity. Yes, there is a learning curve, but you do not need to buy the latest jig to get it done. If you really must, you can cut an angle on a block of wood and that can help you maintain your desired angle for sharpening. Add a few playing cards afterwards between the chisel and block to give you a higher angle to create the micro bevel.
                  I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                  Comment

                  • jabe
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 566
                    • Hilo, Hawaii
                    • Ryobi BT3000 & Delta Milwaukee 10" tilting Table circular saw

                    #24
                    I have the WS3000 it worked great, it gets the bevel angle correct and cut my sharpening time in half. But, I still polish the chisels with my fine Japanese water stones to get it Katana sharp. My chisels & Kanna (japanese hand planes) blade edges looks like chrome. I make cardboard scabbards for my chisels out of oak tag board held together with masking tape to protect the edge.

                    Comment

                    • messmaker
                      Veteran Member
                      • May 2004
                      • 1495
                      • RICHMOND, KY, USA.
                      • Ridgid 2424

                      #25
                      I use Scary Sharp, a belt grinder or a loaded fiber wheel on a grinder and they all work. A leather honing wheel is what takes it to the next level. It should look like a mirror and cut like a razor.
                      spellling champion Lexington region 1982

                      Comment

                      • woodturner
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 2047
                        • Western Pennsylvania
                        • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                        #26
                        Originally posted by phi1l
                        You will never be able to hold a chisel at any angle, let alone the angle you want long enough to make a scary sharp edge.
                        Have to disagree with that. It's actually quite easy for most people to learn to hold a chisel at a constant angle. I've taught a number of beginners to do it in less than an hour.

                        Keep in mind it's not the precise angle that's important, but that you keep that angle on each stroke.

                        Much quicker and easier than using a honing guide, in my experience. Nothing really wrong with honing guides, though, other than the time and trouble to set them up and the tendency to round the edge a bit.
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                        Comment

                        • leehljp
                          Just me
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 8429
                          • Tunica, MS
                          • BT3000/3100

                          #27
                          Originally posted by woodturner
                          Keep in mind it's not the precise angle that's important, but that you keep that angle on each stroke.
                          .
                          That is my problem - keeping the same angle. I have difficulty with that even when I have a tool rest and sliding from side to side. Kind of like old people who drift right and left as they turn their heads when driving! Seriously! I am totally aware that it happens but controlling it requires "feel" which is not there anymore.

                          That is why I depend on jigs and precision equipment for making things. My hands and hand eye coordination are not like it used to be and not up to it. I used to be able to rip short board or 2ft square piece of plywood precisely just by eyeballing it. Can't do that anymore except by luck only.
                          Hank Lee

                          Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

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