Bandsaw: Craftsman 22401 vs Rikon 10-325

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  • Knottscott
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 3815
    • Rochester, NY.
    • 2008 Shop Fox W1677

    #16
    Originally posted by affyx
    I've stopped buying craftsman - I think they are fine tools but overpriced. Also I consider it "graduating" to move beyond Craftsman to names like Porter Cable, Delta & Powermatic. ....
    JC
    In this day and age you really need to buy the individual tools, not the name. The lines are very blurred, and many tools are made in the same factories with different name plates. Delta is now owned by Chang Type, LTD, many of Powermatic tools are made in Asia...many along side Jet, Grizzly, GI, and Shop Fox, PC is beingi diluted to a consumer grade tool, and Ryobi makes most Ridgid. The Cman bandsaws are now made by Richen Enterprises who owns Rikon...they're very similar and share many parts. Steel City makes the Cman 22116 granite hybrid. Dayton makes the Cman 21833 contractor saw that's identical to the Ridgid R4512. Ryobi makes the Cman 21829 BT3### clone and 21828 portable that's identical to the Ridgid R4510. Chervon Power makes their current router lineup. Forget the name, but definitely check out some of the better tools.

    Edit: ...just realized the age of this thread, but the statement is still pertinent.
    Last edited by Knottscott; 02-21-2012, 11:10 PM.
    Happiness is sort of like wetting your pants....everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.

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    • cwsmith
      Veteran Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 2737
      • NY Southern Tier, USA.
      • BT3100-1

      #17
      I agree with your assessment about "brands"... it's all a blurr these days. Even the companies that actually have manufacturing facilities don't necessarily make all of the tools under thier brand.

      I should point out that "Ryobi does NOT make Ridgid"... actually, technically, the parent company is Tectronics International (TTI) which is a Hong Kong-base global corporation started by two businessmen, one British and the other Chinese. Both the "Ryobi" and "Ridgid" brand names are used under license agreement, with "Ryobi" being an older Japanese company (known well for it's high tech printing equipment and a line of tools of thier own design which are sold in Japan... these are different in color and design that the "Ryobi" most of us know. "Ridgid" is owned by Emerson Electric which used to make tools like my 1973 "Craftsman" RAS. They still make shop vacs and plumbing tools, motors, and I believe control systems. As part of TTI's licensing with Ridgid, they took over the old line of Emerson-made "Ridgid" stationary woodworking tools. (But, Emerson had long ago sub-contracted those out of the U.S.)

      TTI has manufacturing facilities in many countries, but I believe these are now mostly in Taiwan and China. TTI brands include AEG (here in the U.S. these are branded with the "Ridgid" name), Ryobi, Dirt Devil, Hoover, Homelite, and a few others. A couple of my "Ryobi" tools were made here in the U.S..

      My local Sears store still has the 14" bandsaw, but I have noticed it hasn't appeared in the last two Craftsman catalogs... but of course I could have missed it, as the catalog is a mess of disorganization.

      Everyone realizes, I'm sure, that Sear's Craftsman brand does not really manufacture anything and all tools are contracted to other manufactures which most often have their own brand market placement (but some don't...just manufacturing under whatever brands they supply for). BUT, Sears does often "specify" thier own specifications or modifications for particular tools. So while a Craftsman tool may be very much like another brand, you won't necessarily find that exact tool anywhere else. The 14" bandsaw is a good example of that. It may very well be just like the Rikon or another brand, there are some slight differences.

      I'm not as impressed with the Craftsman brand as I once was. I think it has slipped bit over the years. Mostly though, I find the Craftsman power tool warranty not very competitive at "one year".

      CWS
      Last edited by cwsmith; 02-22-2012, 11:56 AM.
      Think it Through Before You Do!

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      • chopnhack
        Veteran Member
        • Oct 2006
        • 3779
        • Florida
        • Ryobi BT3100

        #18
        It's curious, we say that some of these items are made along side each other in the factory.. why does one model end up with a better fit, better tolerances, etc.? My pet theory is that the more experienced assemblers work on the more expensive model's line. Anyone care to further my assumption?
        I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

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        • cwsmith
          Veteran Member
          • Dec 2005
          • 2737
          • NY Southern Tier, USA.
          • BT3100-1

          #19
          Not exactly sure if I'm interpreting your question correctly, "these items are made along side each other in the factory.. why does one model end up with a better fit, better tolerances, etc.?"


          I would dare to guess it's a lot like any other product line, in that the different brands (made by the same parent company) or models of a tool, within the same brand, are NOT made side by side. For example, most automobile manufacturers don't run different models down the same assembly line. GM has a different factory for Chevy than it does for Cadillac, and many of the components that go into those vehicles will have different requirements in material, strength, and fit and finish.

          The particulars of supplying parts to a particular assembly plant or line is more or less simply a matter of efficiency... you feed a particular assembly line with parts only for that model; and, if you were to attempt to put together different models on the same line, it would not only be a traffic jam with the parts, but a nightmare for the assembly workers and a real headache for the line foremen and QA people.

          But let's take "Ryobi" and "Milwaukee" (I forgot to mention that TTI bought "Milwaukee" a few years ago). They are built for different markets to some respect. Tighter tolerences, better materials, and designs that are more in keeping with the really demanding requirements of the so-called pro, who will use them day in and day out for months and years. That extra work in design, labor, machining and materials cost considerably more and at that price level, there will be consumer's who simply can't afford to go that route or will be more demanding of thier finances.

          On a lower cost point, the Ryobi tool is designed to fit the budget of the occasional user. There may be some little gimicky items added (like those little levels they put on the drills a few years ago) and there's more attention to "attraction" perhaps, because that particular area of the tool business also need to be attractive to first time users and those who buy gifts for the tool workers they love.. But the tool itself isn't designed to go the same "number of rounds" as the Milwaukee. Materials will be lighter, motor windings may not be as heavy duty, and have a lifespan that may well be shorter if the tool is pushed beyond normal expectations.

          "Tolerances" I'm not sure about though. With today's modern computer-guided machinery I'm think holding +/- 0.001 isn't any more difficult that say holding something less. Looser tolerances mean faster assembly, if manual assembly is being performed in the factory, but today that is highly automated. Designers do have to keep in mind the tolerances that the materials can handle though. Material selection is a dominant factor too, I would think, as they need to hold their form not only during machining but also under the work that the tool is designed to do. For example certain bearing types and materials used are far more costly than others... but a cheap bearing, won't take the stresses of heat and load that may be required for a professional tool.

          A lightweight or inexpensive tool can work very well for many of us. Some of us of course can be "tool-snobs", but then there are many everywhere that can afford and appreciate a very fine tool and often their craftmanship reflect that. But still, there are many examples of "cheap" that still work as good as ever... decades later. (That might well only mean that they haven't been "pushed" though.

          I hope this helps,

          CWS
          Last edited by cwsmith; 02-22-2012, 08:16 PM.
          Think it Through Before You Do!

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          • mtnjak
            Handtools only
            • Feb 2012
            • 2

            #20
            Wow, look what I did! LOL The main reason for resuscitating this thread was to point out the obvious fact that I've found that Rikon and Craftsman don't just look alike but do in fact have many of the same parts. Not all, but probably (just by comparing my Craftsman firsthand to the Rikon magazine review and other online information) about 75% of the parts are the same. I don't know who or how they are both manufactured but just that Craftsman, at least the model I have, is pretty close to the same machine as the Rikon. I will say the Rikon trunion looks like a better design than the Craftsman. Mine, the plastic adjustment knob has stripped out and the angle can only be set if I use a wrench to loosen and tighten the trunion. Besides that, it's been a pretty decent saw especially for the price I paid for it.

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            • tommyt654
              Veteran Member
              • Nov 2008
              • 2334

              #21
              I woiuld venture to say that the Rikon service is better than Sears as well

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              • chopnhack
                Veteran Member
                • Oct 2006
                • 3779
                • Florida
                • Ryobi BT3100

                #22
                Good insight CWS! I guess that terminology is just loosely bandied around due to the fact of users finding so much content between models that are similar if not the same. Made me wonder! I assume then the differences between models starts at the drawing board when the unit is engineered. There must be some differences inherit to the machine that would make it more durable, more powerful, etc to warrant the extra cost and not just the brand name or marketing.
                I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                Comment

                • cwsmith
                  Veteran Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2737
                  • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                  • BT3100-1

                  #23
                  I can't speak for the similarities between the Rikon and the Sears models. I believe I read somewhere not too long ago that the Craftsman was NOT made by Rikon.

                  But for me at least, that raises the question... Does Rikon make all of the components for thier bandsaw, or do they perhaps make only some of them, or even is Rikon more the maker of another tool and simply subcontracts some or even all of the components for it's 14-inch Bandsaw?

                  I think it is rare these days to actually have a manufacturer anywhere that makes all of the components or even all of the products in it's product offerings.

                  We've been in a "global" market for quite a number of years now and you can pretty much bet that some components are purchased elsewhere, say from a supplier in China, India, or Taiwan. Rikon could well be making their bandsaw, but purchasing some components from a third party.

                  Similarly, whoever makes the Craftsman model may do the same thing... henceforth, there will be some very similar components.

                  (For example, when IBM first introduced the "PC".... it made none of the components, NOT a single one. It basically copied many of the best features from other products on the market, designed a package that would include those features, and then subcontracted everything. It went from design stage to market in less than a year and in that rush, if failed to patent or copyright anything. The only things that IBM actually had a license for was the three little letters on it's nameplate and the operating BIOS. But even with the latter, the BIOS design had been done by another company and IBM only owned that exact circuit design. Within six months, another company introduced the same product for a few hundred dollars less. That company, "Columbia Data Products" simply purchased the IBM in it's initial week, and then searched for the manufacturers of the components. Except for the nameplate and the BIOS chip, everything on the Columbia was identical, right down to the number of vent slots and the color tone on the cabinet. [The story at the time was that some of the component manufacturer's were so excited by IBM's order, that they actually manufactured more inventory than IBM would take on the first product order... and then Columbia simply bought up much of that stock.] With the BIOS, Columbia went to the chip manufacturer/design team and simply got as close a "duplicate" as possible without infringing on IBM's design.... that spawned the "IBM compatible" challenge that went on for quite a number of years. IBM simply got out-classed in that process as everybody in the PC manufacturing business surged ahead with better designs.)

                  A major dept in any modern manufacturing company will be the "purchasing dept". Design engineers generally don't just design the components to meet the performance criterea they're looking for, but also must work closely with both manufacturing and product engineering to ensure the product falls within the manufacturer's capability. "Purchasing" in turn takes on the task of finding the components that are outside those which can be made internally and/or which may cost more to manufacture internally. The whole R&D process envolves everything from engineers and technicians to buyers and accountants.

                  More and more, the competitive cost of a product will largely depend on procurement from the most cost-efficient source.

                  CWS
                  Think it Through Before You Do!

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