HF Dust Collector Filter upgrade

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • HF Dust Collector Filter upgrade

    Hi all-

    New to the forum, but have read many threads.

    The subject of upgrades to the HF collector has been discussed for years. What I've been chewing on is the Wynn vs Donaldson filter upgrade. The Donaldson seems to be liked by most that have installed it, but there is always someone who brings up the point that the filters are meant to be pulled through (outside in) filtration.

    My thoughts are, if there is substance to that idea, why not have the exhaust side of a blower push into a barrel that has the Donaldson (or any equivalent) filter inside with the exhaust of the barrel coming through what would be the intake of the filter.

    Not sure if that makes sense, but a thought I was having that I figured I would bounce off you all.

  • #2
    Looking at the Donaldson filter, and mind you the media itself does not care what direction the air is moving, it's just a semi permeable barrier. The difference is going to be reinforcing mesh that keeps the pleats in place, and to my knowledge, just like the Wynn 35(A,B,C whatever) filters, the Donaldson P18038 I believe the item is, has reinforcing mesh both inside and outside, so directionality isn't going to be a problem. If you look at the photos of the Donladson you can clearly SEE the reinforcing mesh on the outside so it will be supported against the direction of force / air flow coming form inside the DC to the outside...

    This is a lot of worry over nothing.

    Having said that, the Donaldson does NOT come with any sort of mounting hardware for a dust collector. You will need to figure something out, and may end up at Wyn nfor their specialty hardware anyway. You may find the cost difference when the final bill is tallied up to not be worth the hassle of chasing parts down... Of course YMMV.

    Oh another issue is going to be shipping costs on the filters. The cheapest filter seller I could see on that Donaldson filter also charges nearly $85.00 on basic shipping...

    Not saying don't do the Donaldson, just if you are going with the Donaldson, make sure it makes sense compared to the tried and proven Wynn...
    Last edited by dbhost; 01-13-2022, 11:52 AM.
    Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

    Comment


    • #3
      I hear you on the worrying over the direction, but for some reason all the filters I can think of have always had a direction they were supposed to be installed.. Inline fuel filters, furnace filters, etc. Not saying it matters, just thinking out loud. Mounting wouldn't be a problem for me regardless, but its a good thought when it comes to time savings.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tbyji2 View Post
        I hear you on the worrying over the direction, but for some reason all the filters I can think of have always had a direction they were supposed to be installed.. Inline fuel filters, furnace filters, etc. Not saying it matters, just thinking out loud. Mounting wouldn't be a problem for me regardless, but its a good thought when it comes to time savings.
        Fuel finters have a flow direction because they *should* have a one way check valve in them to keep fuel flowing back to the tank / pump. Furnace filters have a directional on them because the supporting material for the filter is usually on the back side of the direction of flow to keep the filter media from getting sucked in. These filters the filter media tends to be quite stiff,and honestly does not really need a lot of reinforcement.

        Mind you, I like the Donaldson, IF you can get them at a good price. Don't worry about flow direction. The real concern is gasketing to the DC, and mounting to the DC.
        Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

        Comment


        • #5
          My HF 2 HPDC upgrade is the grizzly canister filter on top plus a neutral vane and a catch bag discussed other places here.
          The Canister was $165 in 2006 and had a 20 inch ring size and fit the HF with no issues.
          Just glancing at the Grizzly website they have canisters available as replacements for their DCs.

          I think it was this one. Kinda expensive now but it wasn't cheap in 2006.

          https://www.grizzly.com/products/gri...-g0562-z/h5783

          My DC when it was new.
          Click image for larger version  Name:	griz canister on HF 2HPDC.JPG Views:	9 Size:	23.3 KB ID:	847398

          Yeah, its a quality 1 micron cut filter and fits the filter ring perfectly. Since it has 6 times the filter/flow area of a fabric bag due to pleats and special filtering material, you eliminate the 2-bag, 5 micron setup. Doing that allows using a catch bag only rather than a filter bag on the bottom with no loss in filtering as it fills up, and the single canister on top that filters better than 2 empty bags with a much finer cut and lower overall flow restriction. The beater bar is a good thing, it shakes the caked up fines off the pleats and drops them into the catch bag.
          Last edited by LCHIEN; 01-14-2022, 01:04 AM.
          Loring in Katy, TX USA
          If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
          BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

          Comment


          • dbhost

            dbhost
            commented
            Editing a comment
            What's the filtration rating on the Grizzly? I like that it has the internal beater....

            Never mind, I looked it up. 1 micron, spun bond polyester. Good material.

            You are right though, steep price on that. It looks like it is tailor fit for the HF 2HP DC though... I mean that looks like a facttory perfect fit.
            Last edited by dbhost; 01-13-2022, 10:00 PM.

          • LCHIEN
            LCHIEN commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah, its a quality 1 micron cut filter and fits the filter ring perfectly. Since it has 6 times the filter/flow area of a fabric bag due to pleats and special filtering material, you eliminate the 2-bag, 5 micron setup. Doing that allows using a catch bag only rather than a filter bag on the bottom with no loss in filtering as it fills up, and the single canister on top that filters better than 2 empty bags with a much finer cut and lower overall flow restriction. The beater bar is a good thing, it shakes the caked up fines off the pleats and drops them into the catch bag.
            Last edited by LCHIEN; 01-14-2022, 01:03 AM.

        • #6
          My experience with industrial dust collection, if you suggested using the inside of a large barrel type filter such as these on our woodworking dust collectors, you would probably be laughed out of the building or banned from engineering dust collection equipment. These filters are too expensive to be thrown away and too hard to clean the inside of the filter using outside cleaning service or contract labor. My company had on site contractors remove its filters, both bag type and drum filters, clean the filter house and install used, recently professionally clean filter media, The dirty filters were sent somewhere off site for professional cleaning.
          Likewise, our woodworking filters are expensive and are intended to be cleaned and re-used. It doesn’t take but a couple of tear downs and cleanings to hate the concept of cleaning the inside of a 3 foot long pleated filter inside a metal cage!
          I honestly feel that the use of the inside of the filter method rather than the outside is a shortcut that manufactures of dust collection equipment uses to make a more compact filter system. Their competitors must do likewise to be price competitive. Filter manufacturers are not likely to voice an opinion because they know that a barrel filter is going to clean in either configuration so they are not liable, and they will still sell filters.

          I have seen several woodworking dust collection system owners online showing their systems where the barrel filters collected dust on the outside of the filter and were housed inside a pressure tight box. This took up only slightly more shop space and are definitely not a plug and play system like most of today’s filter system offerings.

          I am curious to know if converting a “traditional” dust collector with inside the filter collection to an outside the filter with a pressure tite box would result in a quieter operating system.

          Capncarl

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by capncarl View Post
            My experience with industrial dust collection, if you suggested using the inside of a large barrel type filter such as these on our woodworking dust collectors, you would probably be laughed out of the building or banned from engineering dust collection equipment. These filters are too expensive to be thrown away and too hard to clean the inside of the filter using outside cleaning service or contract labor. My company had on site contractors remove its filters, both bag type and drum filters, clean the filter house and install used, recently professionally clean filter media, The dirty filters were sent somewhere off site for professional cleaning.
            Likewise, our woodworking filters are expensive and are intended to be cleaned and re-used. It doesn’t take but a couple of tear downs and cleanings to hate the concept of cleaning the inside of a 3 foot long pleated filter inside a metal cage!
            I honestly feel that the use of the inside of the filter method rather than the outside is a shortcut that manufactures of dust collection equipment uses to make a more compact filter system. Their competitors must do likewise to be price competitive. Filter manufacturers are not likely to voice an opinion because they know that a barrel filter is going to clean in either configuration so they are not liable, and they will still sell filters.

            I have seen several woodworking dust collection system owners online showing their systems where the barrel filters collected dust on the outside of the filter and were housed inside a pressure tight box. This took up only slightly more shop space and are definitely not a plug and play system like most of today’s filter system offerings.

            I am curious to know if converting a “traditional” dust collector with inside the filter collection to an outside the filter with a pressure tite box would result in a quieter operating system.

            Capncarl
            I am uncertain of what you are talking about with inside the filter collection to outside the filter collection. Could you please clarify? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet to figure it out...

            As far as cleaning the filter goes, at least with the spun bond poly Wynn I have, the only cleaning it has needed since day 1 was been periodically banging the metal top rim in several places, then giving it a blast of compressed air from the outside in, this creates a shower of fine dust down to the collection bag. This has worked well for me since day 1.

            An air tight external enclosure for the DC makes no sense to me either, air has to go somehwere. When I was, and apparently may still be considering depending on my lovely bride, a 10x20 shed / shop, the thought was to put the DC in an outdoor enclosure / bump out that didn't count on the square footage, and just have a pass through with one, or a pair of larger pleated HVAC filters to allow cleaner return air should anything bypass the filter in the DC, and keep the conditioned air in the workspace.

            FWIW, for those here not familiar with why the OP was asking about the Donaldson filter, they are supposed to be MERV15 .5 micron filtration filters just like the Wynn, but at around $100.00 less. They are actually filters for large industrial / heavy duty diesel trucks I believe, like maybe the Terex or something like that, who knows? They lack the bottom gasket and hold down hardware of the Wynn. Gasket material is cheap and plentiful, and small turnbuckles which is what Wynn USED to ship with their filters, are cheap and readily available at your local Ace Hardware store.

            FWIW, at current pricing. The fixed top 35C NANO is running $225.00, not sure why you would want the model with the removable head but some might, this one doesn't. Shipping to MY address is $31.99

            Current listing on Amazon. Donaldson P181038 is $181.80 with $39.95 shipping.

            Not too long ago the Donaldson was just barely at $129.00 making it a MUCH better value option. But that's inflation for ya....
            Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

            Comment


            • capncarl
              capncarl commented
              Editing a comment
              Inside the filter is what you have with our wood dust collectors, outside the filter is what you have on nearly every automobile and diesel equipment where the dirt and dust is captured on the outside of the filter. These automotive filter housings are what I refer to as the filter box. The clean filtered air exits the filter through the center into the engine, and on my reference of the correct way a wood filter should work, it would likewise exit the inside of the filter back into the shop.

          • #8
            capncarl hit the nail on the head with what I was tryin to get across, converting a traditional "inside out" system to an "outside in". Maybe more work than worth but was an idea that I was toying with. I can get the Donaldson for about $160 to my door. Has anyone had experience with both the Wynn vs the Donaldson to say if one has performed better than the other?

            Comment


            • #9
              My previous question where I stated: I am curious to know if converting a “traditional” dust collector with inside the filter collection to an outside the filter with a pressure tite box would result in a quieter operating system. If it had a noticeable reduction in noise it would be well worth the effort to convert to an outside filte configuration. Quieting my ClearVue dust collector down to a bearable roar took me 4 times as long to accomplish as it did to install the machine. I could have built a filter box in a lots less time. The jet engine roar seems to come off the fan wheel and duct and elbow into the center of the filter. The filter isn’t a great muffler. Fully enclosing the filter in a filter box might cut the roar some!
              tbyji2, if you are planning on installing a large collector inside the shop, be warned it is LOUD! There are many reasons to install inside the shop and there are many reasons to install inside the shop.

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by capncarl View Post
                My previous question where I stated: I am curious to know if converting a “traditional” dust collector with inside the filter collection to an outside the filter with a pressure tite box would result in a quieter operating system. If it had a noticeable reduction in noise it would be well worth the effort to convert to an outside filte configuration. Quieting my ClearVue dust collector down to a bearable roar took me 4 times as long to accomplish as it did to install the machine. I could have built a filter box in a lots less time. The jet engine roar seems to come off the fan wheel and duct and elbow into the center of the filter. The filter isn’t a great muffler. Fully enclosing the filter in a filter box might cut the roar some!
                tbyji2, if you are planning on installing a large collector inside the shop, be warned it is LOUD! There are many reasons to install inside the shop and there are many reasons to install inside the shop.
                Meh, the HF 2HP DC isn't exactly whisper quiet, but yeah, you are moving a LOT more air with a MUCH bigger impeller, it kind of has to be noisy. I did notice the tone of the sound changed a LOT, much deeper whoosh when I upgraded impellers and took the 55 gallon Thien out.

                tbyji2 You didn't mention any kind of separator, or if you did I missed it. If you haven't decided on one yet, you may want to consider fabricating up and installing a Neutral Vane. LCHIEN and I both can help you figure the process out. It does involve metal work though. You'll need tin snips, and a pop riveter... Pretty simple build and worth it..
                Last edited by dbhost; 01-14-2022, 10:32 PM.
                Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by dbhost View Post

                  Meh, the HF 2HP DC isn't exactly whisper quiet, but yeah, you are moving a LOT more air with a MUCH bigger impeller, it kind of has to be noisy. I did notice the tone of the sound changed a LOT, much deeper whoosh when I upgraded impellers and took the 55 gallon Thien out.

                  tbyji2 You didn't mention any kind of separator, or if you did I missed it. If you haven't decided on one yet, you may want to consider fabricating up and installing a Neutral Vane. LCHIEN and I both can help you figure the process out. It does involve metal work though. You'll need tin snips, and a pop riveter... Pretty simple build and worth it..
                  No separator yet. First going to get a better filter and impeller on it, and figure out routing (currently going to stick with 4" sewer PVC as I already have a couple sticks of it on hand). then will work on a separator. I did look at Bill Pentz's website, not sure I have the ceiling height to build his design, and definitely not the power (yet).

                  Comment


                  • dbhost

                    dbhost
                    commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The info is hard to find there, but my HF 2HP DC build is the Bill Pentz recommendations. As large and effective impeller as possible. In my case the Wen 3403-22 Turbofan, an ultra fine filtering pleated filter, Wynn 35A, it's old now... and a Neutral vane to act as at least a rudimentary cyclonic separator although it does nothing to prevent scrubbing, meaning picking up dust from the catch bag and ending up in the filter. LCHIEN has been using a Neutral vane for years with no clogging issues, just occasional cleanings of the filter. I had run a Thien baffle barrel separator that worked great, but took a huge hit aiflow wise so I went ithe neutral vane as well.

                    I can't fault you for using what you have. I am actually pullin gback my 4" DWV in favor of 5" metal ducting and then reducing at the machine to 4" or 2.5" as needed. Honestly, most folks stick with 4, or oversize to 6. Do what works fo ryou.

                • #12
                  Dido on previous comment, use what you have when you can. Reading Bill Pentz’s information and numerous other write ups on the hazards of wood dust to our lungs I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t an issue of if I could afford to spend money on a substantial large dust collector but for health reasons I couldn’t afford NOT to spend the money on a larger dust collector. The same goes for saw safety! I have a great respect for the blades on my table saw and band saw, but after several close calls and seeing first hand what happens when a finger gets too close to a rotating saw blade…. I parked my Powermatic table saw and replaced it with a SawStop. If it saves me from ONE accident then to me it is worth the cost. A friend of mine recently mashed the end of this thumb off unhitching a trailer from a truck. His bill is $17,000.00 to date and he elected not to have reconstruct surgery. Simular cost for a finger amputation on a saw.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    the config I menion from Bill Pentz is kind of his bare minimum kind of thing. I still am going well out of my way to maximize what I have, or can afford. Since I can't afford a huge 5HP Clear Vue cyclone, PLUS the 8in spiral ducting, AND the SawStop, I am opting to keep running my HF DC modded, 5"ducting soonest possible, overhead air filter although I was good with a Box fan with a filtrete filter taped to it, and a respirator when needed.
                    Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

                    Comment


                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I understand not affording the larger collector or SawStop. I brought this comment to the newbie’s attention, just as someone sent him to Bill Pentz’s site. I occasionally refer to the Wise Ones statement that you should buy your last tablesaw first. This is a statement where the BT3 saw could very well be your last saw, as it will do most everything that a large tablesaw does, or with a few jigs or other work arounds. That is hardly the case with a small dust collector. You can soup it up as much as you possibly can but it will never meet the recommended CFM for proper dust control.

                      Many years ago when I heard about the dangers of asbestos I tried to find out how much exposure is safe, I could not get a satisfactory answer, likewise with wood dust.

                    • dbhost

                      dbhost
                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Not going to disagree with you on that, HOWEVER, most home hobbyist woodworkers can't afford, or house 3 phase 15HP blowers with 10" ducts, and upsize their ports to work with those ducts... It's just not feasable for 99% of folks out there...

                      The bigger the motor / impeller, the bigger the duct you can run, the bigger, straighter, and smoother the duct you run, not necessarily longer, the more CFM you can move. Be it a Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Delta, doesn't matter, 2HP 110v dust collector, you just are not going to move the kind of air you need to for truly good fine dust collection. About the best we can hope for is reasonable fine dust collection, with added air filtration both ambient, and personally I.E. hanging air cleaners and respirators.
                      Last edited by dbhost; 01-17-2022, 11:30 PM.
                  Working...
                  X